This & That: Debt Management Edition
Posted by Gail | Filed under Credit Wise, This & That
It doesn’t seem to matter how much I write about or talk about debt and how to get out of it, there’s always something I haven’t covered. No wonder so many people are confused!
B wrote:
I was fortunate to hear you speak on June 14th in Sudbury… I had a question regarding consolodation loans… together my partner and I have a accumulate debt of 60,000$ in consumer debt. It has definetly gotten out of control. We are trying to pay off the highest credit card, then lines of credit first, but I wondered if it would be better to try and consolodate our loans and subsequently get rid of the credit cards and close the lines of credit… We took out a second mortgage three years ago, but did not do the above…and here we are again… Any suggestions?
B, consolidation makes sense when you can get your interest rates down and create a set repayment structure. But you have big holes in your budget as witnessed by the fact that you’ve accumulated $60K in debt in 3 years. Girl, it’s time to make a budget, cut your expenses way back and start living within your means. You’re headed to the edge of the cliff and if you don’t change directions, well, Wiley E Coyote you are not and you won’t survive the plunge!
M wrote:
I am about to apply with a trustee for a consumer proposal. I have combined student loan and credit card debt under $30,000. I was told this is the best option for me. Is a proposal the best option when you cannot make the full payments? Are there any negatives to a consumer proposal?
M, the proposal may be the best option, but your trustee will have to guide you on this since I’m not aware of your details. The downsides are that you’ll have a crappy credit history, as bad as if you had declared bankruptcy, and you’ll have to make all the payments on time without any wiggle room or you’ll be in default of the proposal. However, if your student loans are not more than 7 years old (7 years since you left school), and if they are government funded, they can’t be discharged by bankruptcy, and so the CP would be your only option other than figuring this out yourself.
Lidija wrote:
I have a question that I haven’t seen answered yet: I have a Home Line Credit Line along with my mortgage. Currently my mortgage is just under $80,000, but my credit line is about $186,000. We used the credit line to complete renovations on the house, add a room, help one child buy land, pay off some medical bills…well, you get the picture. I don’t want to make excuses, I spent the money, and I have to pay back the money. Here is my question: how do I plan a budget to pay back $186,000 — it seems like it will take me forever! I start off with good intentions (make a budget, start putting money toward the credit line) but then “something” comes up, and I think “I’ll start again next time.” At this rate I will be dead before it’s paid off. Any suggestion would be helpful.
Lidija, why don’t you roll the line of credit into your mortgage to create a payment stream you can manage. Then, if you’re determined not to take forever to pay it off, you can find ways of making extra payments against the mortgage that reduce your amortization and interest costs. Start by choosing a weekly or bi-weekly accelerated mortgage payment. As you find more money, you can accumulate an annual pre-payment to further reduce time and costs. When you’re choosing the amortization for the mortgage, remember that the longer you choose the more interest you’ll pay but the lower your payment amount will be. Don’t strap yourself too tight. But make sure you’re aggressive in getting that principal paid off.
D wrote:
My concern is not about the level of debt that my husband and I have, but the level of anxiety over the amount of debt that we have. Aside from student loans and mortgage (which are regular biweekly payments accommodated for in our budget) we owe $1900 on a low rate line of credit (7%) and credit card (12%). We are also saving a few hundred a month for an emergency fund and retirement. However, I am more panicked about this than people I know who owe tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt? Thanks to your show, I conquered a vicious cycle where we paid everything we could on our debt, leaving little for monthly expenses, resulting in us racking up more debt! But I still can’t beat this anxiety.
D, perhaps if you made a “goal chart” and could watch your progress as you get to debt free that would help to alleviate some of your anxiety. If you are so focused on the debt that you can’t get it out of your mind, the chart would put it in a place you could see without you having to carry it around in your mind’s eye.
K wrote:
I’m a 32 year old woman with an approximate net worth of $200K. (About $100K in RRSPs and approximately $100K of equity in my condo.) I’ve been dating my boyfriend for nearly a year, and expect that we will decide to move in together and/or get married reasonably soon. My 32 year old boyfriend went back to school for a Masters in Education a few years ago, and he has been working full time as a teacher for about nine months now. I’m learning more about his finances, and understand that he has approximately $65K in debt (loans from both his parents of approximately $25K, plus about $15K in student loans from his undergrad.) It’s hard for me to understand how he assumed this much debt in the first place, including what type of agreement he has in place with his parents for debt repayment when they all understood he wouldn’t be earning a huge salary when he did start working full time. (His teacher’s salary is approximately $45K-$50K right now.) But I do understand that by moving in together and sharing our lives together will mean his debt does become my debt. I have worked through the numbers, and believe we can pay this off together within a 3-5 year period (depending on how successful I am in my sales position). My question is about whether I should take any steps prior to us moving in together in the event things don’t work out for us in the long term.
K, the first thing is you don’t have to assume his debt. Until you sign for his debt, it’s only HIS debt. It becomes yours if you co-sign with him or for him, or consolidate his debt on to joint credit, so don’t do that. Second, when he moves into your condo, it becomes your “matrimonial home” which means he has a claim on any assets if you separate down the road. If you have a significant amount of equity built up, you may have to share that, regardless of whether his name is on the property paperwork. If you have very little equity built up, you’ll build it together, so sharing is fair.
If I were in your shoes, I’d insist he have a debt repayment plan in place to deal with his debt within three to five years, no ifs, ands or butts! I’d also “share” proportionate to income all the costs associated with living together, but keep debt repayment and saving separate. Have you read my blog on getting married and the conversations you should have? I urge you to do so, even though you may not be officially tying the knot.
August 26, 2009 at 7:47 am
K..
Without going into details I will keep it simple…
Move on!!… Not in with him!
August 26, 2009 at 8:34 am
John,
It’s 0530hrs here in BC. You gave me my first laugh of the day!!
I think you are dead on right!!!
August 26, 2009 at 9:05 am
K:
I agree with John and Diana. You have a lot to lose. Be careful….be very very careful!!
August 26, 2009 at 9:08 am
I am like the woman who has increased anxiety re: her finances.
Since becoming a Gail-phile, I have become obsessed with my envelope money and checking my bank balances.
I am stressed if I use $20 from one envelope for the “wrong” envelope use.
I count up my hours of work to try and figure out what my paycheque will be and subtract my bi-weekly amounts and then try to see how much extra I can squirrel away. (I already am saving at least $1,000/month over my pension deductions).
I have never before thought about money like this (and ought to have) yet it is making me stressed and anxious instead of more secure.
I am not struggling with debt, so what is the deal with this new anxiety and how do I stop the madness?
August 26, 2009 at 9:13 am
If a male,me tells you to pass..pass
AND run don’t walk.
August 26, 2009 at 9:15 am
Diana…so I’m not the only one…I now worry about spending the jar money, if I have $150 for food I try to keep it under $120, I do this for each catagory. I really need to loosen up. I also check my accounts every day and know just how much will be in each account months in advance…since going on the budget I hate to spend and I think it could be a bit of an osbession.
August 26, 2009 at 9:15 am
I totally understand D’s situation. I have $13k left on my mortgage, but this economy still has me anxious. To calm myself, I have an Excel that shows me (1) my current payment schedule and (2) my payment schedule if I lose my job. If somehow I end up following (2), it’s not the end of the world…but I still prefer (1).
August 26, 2009 at 9:32 am
I am soooooo happy to hear that I am not the only neurotic.
Thank you for letting me know I am not coo coo.
My husband has been getting rather frustrated with me.
I may not be able to stop the madness, but at least I have mad partners out in the universe.
August 26, 2009 at 10:10 am
I do the same thing… I get very anxious/neurotic about my finances.
I have an excel sheet that I track everything on but I still check my bank accounts ever day (if not more then once a day). I too am driving my partner mad and need to just chill a bit.
August 26, 2009 at 10:20 am
I don’t agree completely that K should automatically ditch the relationship because he’s not in the best financial shape. I would base the decision on how responsible he’s being right now. Has he made a plan to get rid of the debt and is he taking initiative to do this? Is he willing to work hard, contribute to the household and find ways to make more money to pay down the debt? Has he proven his commitment to improving his financial situation? Were the debts taken on for school or for consumer purposes, and if it was wasted, has he seen the errors in his ways? Making past mistakes or amassing debt does not mean the person is necessarily an irresponsible clod. But how he acts now will determine whether or not he is trustworthy.
August 26, 2009 at 10:28 am
[...] news by Gail US Fidelis – Ran payment too early and caused my mortgage pmt to … [...]
August 26, 2009 at 10:33 am
Wow, so I’m not the only one with an “obsession” about my money and where it’s going…. I too have a very complex spreadsheet that shows my current budget as well as an unemployment budget should I lose my job. I’m on a contract right now that ends Dec 31 so I feel I should plan for the worst case scenario if I don’t get an extension. The past few months I’ve been living on the “unemployment” budget to see how it would feel and it really isn’t that bad. I’ve always been good with money and have no credit card debt to pay off. I’ve been tucking away the extra money into my regular savings, emergency savings and my TFSA and it’s really been growing… definitely peace of mind knowing I can live comfortably on the “unemployment” budget and, in the meantime until that happens, save a lot of money!
August 26, 2009 at 10:55 am
Having read this post, initially I was on the wagon with John and company, however, I understand a relationship is a relationship and a difficult thing to end over a money thing. While I would advise K to have the discussions Gail has mentioned, ultimately she’ll be the one making the decision, based not only on the gentleman’s past history with handling his finances but on his current desire to end the debt cycle.
Coming from a home that money drove to divorce, the signs were there from the beginning, but were looked past in favour of love and family. though things we all do, hindsight is 20/20 and thus, had to do all over, my mother would not have entered into the marriage until the errors and ways were changed.
Interesting though relationships are, choosing to live with someone and not be open about the financial aspect paves a dangerous, rocky, uneven path right from the beginning. K definitely needs to find these things out prior to choosing the move in date, to ensure that her hard work is not de-railed. Oft times those who we love pass on traits we do not necessarily want.
My fear is that if she begins to aid in the debt repayment of her current partner, the behaviour will be assumed from that point on, so every time he gets into trouble with money it will be assumed that she’ll be there to pick up the cart, right it, and begin it rolling in the correct direction, irregardless of the intention of the debt in the first place.
A wise person once said “ACTION EXPRESSES PRIORITY”
August 26, 2009 at 11:35 am
Diana,
I am a bit compulsive about checking our accounts and updating my financial spreadsheet. But for me it is reassuring (now).
Money was slipping through our fingers, so I started tracking our spending. Writing it down seemed to be enough to make us think about what we were spending. Once we set some savings goals (emergency, downpayment, vacation, family, gifts, etc) we started to look forward to transferring money into our savings, as it was going to things that are meaningful to us.
The first months were stressful! We were living on a single salary and our savings were being depleted, not growing. Fortunately, we were able to build up an emergency fund and we saved money for the necessities (insurance). This was our transition point. We are comfortable with our situation… so now it gives me a rush to enter in the numbers. The husband gets the satisfaction of picking the next savings priority.
Getting an emergency fund and having a financial strategy (that you can live with) should bring you comfort, and maybe a bit of a thrill. Good luck with yours.
August 26, 2009 at 11:59 am
[...] Overall, some great money management tips in this blog posting. [...]
August 26, 2009 at 1:08 pm
I agree with Saver Queen – how does he handle his finances now matters – not how he handled them in his 20s. I graduated with $26,000 in student debt and have yet to work in my field even 13yrs after graduation. Does that mean I wasn’t marriage material?? I just had different priorities in my mid 20s than I did in my late teens when these things are decided. I have been a stay at home mom/work at home mom for 11 yrs and we have managed to pay off my student loan years ago, raise 4 kids, pay off other debt, pay off 1/2 our mortgage and save a little.
I would say “K” is in better financial shape than 99.9% of my friends in the same age group! She should share her knowledge with her significant other, not punish or belittle him.
August 26, 2009 at 2:46 pm
I agree with saverqueen and Sally -
I wouldn’t end things with this guy, but note the red flag that there is potential for problems if you don’t discuss your financial priorities as a couple, and agree on a strategy for him to manage his debt.
August 26, 2009 at 3:09 pm
[...] This post was Twitted by lyndonfinancial [...]
August 26, 2009 at 3:56 pm
It was sooooo good to hear about others who obsess about money. I think I am driving my husband a little looney. We have been saving for well over a year to remodel our bathroom (it was built in the 70’s and has not been touched since – we bought the house 4 years ago) and now we found it it will cost more than expected, but we have the funds – I just hate parting with funds we worked so hard to save. We are going to be living in this house for the next 30 years as our business is in it. Anyone have any tips on how to let go of this fear/obsession?
August 26, 2009 at 5:58 pm
I don’t understand how the simple act of him moving in with her entitles him to half the equity in her condo? I have heard that there is such a thing as a common-law spouse, but in that case would it not be possible to draw up a “pre-nuptial” type agreement that specifically states all the equity in the condo belongs to her? Otherwise this seems like a very bad situation for her.
August 26, 2009 at 7:44 pm
I’m with you obsessed people.
It’s been benficial, but now it’s starting to get tiring. With only 4k left in consumer debt (We can deal with that easily enough) I need to chill out. But still obsess a little. I’ve cut down to checking the bank accounts only twice a week, and updating the spreadsheet once a week as opposed to every day.
It struck me when my other half was upset because I asked about a $2.00 parking charge on the visa, which was odd seeing as we have park plus accounts and get a 25% discount. There was fear in the response and I was asked to stop yelling (I wasn’t, but I think my obsession with not over spending might have bordered on the abusive).
I now have to work at being a little more flexible, that yes it’s okay to use the visa, but there has to be a plan to pay it off quickly as opposed to now. My partner is feeling poor despite our well off lifestyle and $200 mad money allowance (each). I don’t know how to resolve that, but I’ll have to figure it out.
August 26, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Tara:
Rules vary from one province to another. In general a cohabitation agreement could be overturned or fought in court if against the rules of the province. The ‘matrimonial home’ is different from an income property. Some one else a while back commented on loss after a break up.
K:
I would consider giving him one year on his own figuring how to budget before co-habitating. It would give you a good opportunity how he can hanlde money from now on. Do have the discussion Gail mentioned very soon. If you have questions for him… just ask him. It is easy to set up a budget, but it is something different to follow it and adapt it!
August 26, 2009 at 8:41 pm
I would suggest K and her bf set up a co-habitation agreement, which is essentially a pre-nup for common-law partners. It is the easiest way to ensure peace of mind. There is no reason he deserves half the equity you have built in your condo, unless you want to give it to him. Just because he’s living with you does not make him entitled to it. That doesn’t make much sense to me anyway, or it would seem a roommate who was renting a room from you could claim ownership… my mom and her partner set up a co-hab agreement and she is now paying equity into the home that her partner owns, but it does not have access to the equity that was built before she came along. She said the co-hab process was very very useful for them.
August 26, 2009 at 9:24 pm
I agree with Marcie, having an agreement going in is the best way to go. some comments have suggested to K to ditch her boyfriend. That seems kind of extreme considering his debts are related to his education and not any signs of irresponsibility.
August 27, 2009 at 7:09 am
A year ago, I was obsessed. Now, not so much. I still track everything, and still plan payments, but I don’t spend Sunday mornings going over my budget with a fine-tooth comb!
For me, knowing that I live within my means is enough. It’s habit. Yes, I spend my money, but I’m also not afraid to. I’ve got just over 12K left on my student loan, and I have a plan in place to pay it off by the end of next year, so I tend not to obsess over it. I will sometimes get frustrated that I’m putting almost 1/2 my income to clear the loan, but I don’t *need* the money for living, and once my loan’s paid off, the money I’m using for the loan is for the most part, just going to join my emergency fund/planned saving and RRSP.
Sometimes, I choose to pay less on my loan and allocate more for my “life” fund, but usually, the end of the month comes and there’s still unspent money, so it goes into savings or loan payment. I could wipe out my savings, and have my debt gone today, but that’s a silly proposition, since you never know what could come up or how my circumstances could change.
Basically, having a plan and putting it into place should help alleviate the problem. I also mapped out my student loan, calculating the interest accumulation (more difficult with OSAP since they have two integrated loans with two different rates that you pay together). I can easily adjust payment amounts (I pay extra on the 15th of the month), and see how it will change my payment schedule – and that is what took away any anxiety.
I choose to not spend my money sometimes, or look around for something cheaper/receive offerings for free items, but if I’ve saved my money for some planned spending, I’m also not afraid to use it. I have a vacation in less than a month, and I pay for it next week. I have no problem paying it because that’s why I put the money aside.
EchoLake - if you have the money saved for the remodel, then why are you afraid of using it? Do you also have an Emergency Fund? If you’re wiping out your EF for the remodel, then save some more, and then do it. You work to have money that can support your needs and goals. If this is an important goal for you, then there’s nothing wrong with using money that you have allocated for it.
August 27, 2009 at 8:54 am
I agree with Marie. K should not dump her boyfriend because he has student loans. Student Loans are good debt.
I see the problem of him moving in with debt: it obviously makes sense to cut living costs to speed up the debt repayment. On the other hand, it does mean that they begin their life together with rather large debt. If they are committed to each other and mature about the debt, they can handle it, and I worry that demands that it be fully paid off before moving in together will be perceived as lack of trust in her boyfriend and faith in the relationship. Still, she is wise to protect her own interests, so I would suggest that they delay their move in together for some defined period or till a repayment goal has been reached (say 1/3 to 1/2 of the original loan).
I think the big problem is that our property laws are outdated. I do not believe that a partner should be entitled to ANY assets a person built up before mariage or start of a common-law relationship. Although the laws were originally meant to protect women (stay at home mothers primarily) I think that the effect is now to discourage self reliance. Case in point: I know a woman who has treated her husband like dirt and is divorcing him after five years and it’s all about doing it in a state where she gets half his assets regardless of circumstances. The huge pension fund he built up in 18 years of work before meeting her —she gets half. She is well educated with graduate degrees in engineering but has chosen not to work but to live a life of spas and holidays with toyboys all at his expense…just an extreme example of how both men and women can be hurt by outdated laws. I would even argue that these laws may exacerbate marital problems by allowing persons with a little less integrity to assume rights rather than responsibility!
August 27, 2009 at 10:09 am
Well pre nups in Canada can be and are challenged.
Its pretty harded to limit the matrimonial home in a prenup.
Likewise child/spousal support.
Situations can change and courts can take that into consideration and do.
Say for just one example the spouse with most of the assets gets long term ill,or even teminally and the other cares for the spouse long term or until death.
Then the original prenup limitations can be sucessfully overtuned in most cases.
If unjust enrichment can demonstrated to a court of competant jurisdiction then it(pre nup) can and will be set aside.
I also don’t see much mention of by the time the prenup gets discussed the parties really don’t have the trust expectation/factor plus the roses are starting to wilt and some people don’t even get married after the discussion of implementation of the prenup!!
Talk as you will most marriages do break down about money!!!!
No?
The one spouse left for another or someone waiting in the wings?
Probably a perception of more money available in the new partner or suggestion,promise of?
And in this specific case money and debts is aleady being mentioned!!
Or did I miss something?
Oh yeah when marriages end and spouses go off with another person in the end its more about more money somewhere available to the spouse that leaves.
And/or has already a better financial offer available waiting in the wings after the initial separation and everything with the previous spouse has cooled down, been finalized.
Thats why a lot of young people live togther today with even completely separate bank acounts, car ownerships etc.
August 27, 2009 at 10:28 am
At least in Ontario the act of simply moving does not entitle TeacherBoyfriend (TB) to half of SaverGirl’s (SG’s) home. Even if they live together for a year, they are considered common law. The common law statutes DO NOT provide any commentary on the matrimonial home. Unless you are legally married, she can kick him out and he doesn’t get half of anything. I would suggest, however, that SG consider consulting a lawyer and getting some kind of agreement drawn up, including him paying rent, etc if she’s particularly worried.
I also personally don’t think ‘money’ is the number one cause of divorce. Instead, I think it’s the other issues (compatiblity, understanding, sacrifice, immaturity, impatience) that are the actual underlying causes of the breakup — these are just all reflected in ‘money’. One need only look at the number of celebrity marriages that don’t work – where money isn’t a factor that us normal folk have to deal with as some evidence of this.
August 27, 2009 at 10:56 am
Most of us aren’t in celebrity marriages.
And money is the overwelming cause of mariage breakdown
the other issues are the fluff.
Also the family law act has been re written now to protect relationships of some permanance….yet not legally married.
August 27, 2009 at 12:00 pm
I do have a point about K’s situation and the discussion about marriage/common law status, etc.
Simply moving in together does not automatically mean you’re common law though.
My boyfriend and I have been living together and have decided to stay legally as single. We won’t have any financial benefit to changing our status with the gvt, so we’re choosing not to; it doesn’t change automatically.
August 27, 2009 at 12:06 pm
[...] See the original post here: This & That: Debt Management Edition « gailvazoxlade.com [...]
August 27, 2009 at 12:22 pm
I went from being Scarlette O’Hara – “I’ll think about that tomorrow” to thinking about our debt every second of every minute of every day. My anxiety level and my blood pressure just kept climbing until I thought I would have a stroke. I did find a way to calm down – eventually.
We started paying our debts before we knew about Gail and we went completely overboard. We didn’t have a life and we didn’t have an emergency fund. We did pay down most of the debt but it was hard and miserable. Then we found ‘Til Debt.
The first month we used the jar system we spent every penny from all the jars. The second month we cut all the jars back because we figured that we had over filled them and that we could do with less and put that extra money towards our debt. Well, of course we used it all and even ran short. The third month we went back to the original amounts and used it all. Towards the end of the month we ended up having to use the last of our grocery money to help pay for a prescription because the “other” jar. was empty. We were lucky because we could just eat at my Mom’s. All this to-ing and fro-ing and going back to the stealing from Peter to pay Paul just made me a twitchy mess.
For the fourth month we created a new jar that we called the “transfer” jar. We put $20 into it. The transfer fund was money that was to be used when we ran short in any of the other jars – could be transferred where ever it was needed. Just having that little security blanket lessened my anxiety considerably.
As we got better and better at controlling our spending we started to have money left over in nearly all the jars, nearly every month. Our first instinct was to pay this extra money onto our debts but then we decided to set up a second set of jars. We put the left over money into these jars and within about a year we had a whole months worth of money already sitting there. We also started to put some of the extra funds we earned – overtime, tax refunds, income from garage sales, birthday and Christmas cash gifts – into our chequing account and within two years we had a whole months worth of fixed expenses saved up. This was the single most effective way of calming my anxiety that I have found.
We were no longer living pay to pay but were actually ahead of the game. Now at the beginning of every month all the money that we need for our fixed expenses and for the jars is already sitting there. The money we earn during this month is actually for next month. This makes it completely easy to plan ahead and not get surprised. I am never anxious now because just as soon as the bills come in they get paid because the money is already there. Truthfully – and I know that Gail would not approve – but if I had to do it over again I would actually use borrowed money to set us up with this “month of expenses already in the bank” system. I would rather pay the extra interest than live through the anxiety again. But of course you have to be completely disciplined otherwise this wouldn’t be a tool to help you get straightened out but just another stupid debt.
August 27, 2009 at 2:45 pm
John, can you cite the statute that’s been rewritten? All I can find is Family Law Act 1990 which makes it very clear that common law spouses have nothing if the property isn’t in their name as well as the other spouse.
Also my point about celebrity marriages was this: If money isn’t a concern for them, why is their divorce rate so high? If money is the leading cause of divorce, shouldn’t it be lower? In fact, I think you can make a pretty solid counter argument that for a lot of couples, money is actually a leading cause of staying together, than leaving. I know it was for my parents.
August 27, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Geoff, money was a deciding reason for my parents to stay together too. Things seem to have gotten better between them, now that they don’t have the stress of three kids and aren’t both taking on extra jobs, etc to pay for life.
August 27, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Emma – you might want to check with CRA or a lawyer. You can’t choose to stay single once you have lived together for 12 months or have a baby together. Those are the rules in Ontario and they do vary by province. You should check out the rules for your province.
August 27, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Every single person I know who has left their spouse did NOT do it for the money. In fact, several of the men left to be with their mistresses, who were younger, poorer, and prettier. They lost half their assets in the process. Definitely not the money. One friend left because hubs was too attached to his mom–she had to move halfway across the country to find a job that can support all 3 of her kids. Another didn’t want to be tied down, even if it meant living with 3 other people. Not the money. Just my experience…
I used to work in a tax office. If we find out that a couple have been living together for a year but want to file single, we are not allowed to file them as single. Apparently it’s against the law….and the CRA DOES go after people who try to get away with any tax breaks filing single wrongfully might hold.
August 27, 2009 at 4:23 pm
[...] The rest is here: This & That: Debt Management Edition « gailvazo&… [...]
August 27, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Geoff…
No I don’t have it front of me but its been rewritten way since 1990
1990 is way out of date now.
People tend not to belive it but its there.
August 27, 2009 at 7:39 pm
PART III
SUPPORT OBLIGATIONS
Definitions
29. In this Part,
“dependant” means a person to whom another has an obligation to provide support under this Part; (“personne à charge”)
“spouse” means a spouse as defined in subsection 1 (1), and in addition includes either of two persons who are not married to each other and have cohabited,
(a) continuously for a period of not less than three years, or blah blah.
I didn’t continue with the quotes but see what a spouse is?
It can be 2 persons cohabitating, not married to each other 2 females, 2 males or a male and female.
A boyfriend and girlfriend is part of that regime with the proper timeline
Thats just under support obligations
AND if the girl becomes pregnant and he says its not mine and denies it the FRO upon application can get an order for paternity testing and add it to his support bill.
August 27, 2009 at 7:46 pm
keep in mind that 3 year time frame
BUT if its a relationship of “some permanance” and natural or adoptive children ae involved
So whats some permanence?
August 27, 2009 at 9:35 pm
To find out about common law just google “common law in Canada” and the first site” common-law-separation” seems to cover the subject very extensively.
August 28, 2009 at 8:46 am
John, we’re talking common law marriages as relates to property division if there’s a split, not just if it exists or not. Child support, etc is the same if you’re married or not. But property division isn’t, at least automatically. You can say your ex-partner has been unjustly enriched by you (ie if you pay to upgrade his kitchen, etc) but it all goes through the courts, with their subjectiveness. Versus a legal marriage, where hey, it’s all up for grabs 50/50, no debate, no discussion.
August 28, 2009 at 8:53 am
I never typed it was automatic division.
But it is certainly possible to contest
I also never mentioned anything about a kitchen remodelling job either.
That was your remark,and that in itself is not unjust enrichment.
August 28, 2009 at 11:48 am
John, you never said it was an automatic division but you certainly implied that the revised family law act afforded more property rights than the 1990 version did.
You can contest anything, of course, but it’s clear that there is much more entrenched protection for legally married spouses versus common law, viz. property rights; unless you can cite a specific law otherwise.
And I think you’re misunderstanding what I wrote about a kitchen upgrade, that was just an example of an enrichment and not related to what you wrote per se.
August 28, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Yes I certainly implied that is was possible to contest it.
Where there is money involved and a case then it might be contested.
Sections of that law were revised even later,along with the divorce act to include spousal definition,support, children etc.
cases be launched on precedent creation.
Most certainly married couples have the most rights if you will but not all 50-50 as you stated
And marriage is not “it’s all up for grabs 50/50, no debate, no discussion.” …….your typed comment
Any insurance policy payout/proceeds or payments from a will bequeaths,stipends to a spouse are exempt.
Now if you put that in a joint bank account then the exclusive character is lost. Only newbies do that.
And if a spouse owns a business you won’t most likely get 50% of that if it is held with other director maybe you’ll get 25% or less depending on owners and titles.
or if other property is held with another party or parties horses, antiques etc.
As for case law you want me to look up?
Maybe you want to go first since its your idea to look up something.
I am sure there most certainly will have been dismissals on cases both ways no one would deny that.
August 28, 2009 at 3:09 pm
John, the subject was the matriamonial home and common law marriage and my comments were limited to that subject. And as for citing case law, I did go first, when I looked up the Family Law Act, 1990. There is no need to get upset, or defensive.
August 28, 2009 at 4:24 pm
I just was clarifying your incorrect assumptions and interpretations on my comments.
Then on your overgeneralizations on the comment you made below about marriages which you did comment on.
Versus a legal marriage, where hey, it’s all up for grabs 50/50, no debate, no discussion….end quote yours.
And as far as case law the Family Law Act does not include the relevant case law and individual rulings and precedent cases
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