Do You Worry about Seeming “Mean”?
Posted by Gail | Filed under Life Lessons
I know some people think I’m mean. Hey, I can be tough sometimes, and some folks don’t know just what to do with my very in-your-face approach to dealing with stuff. I can’t stand stupidity (which is different than ignorance), and I have very little patience with whining. My kids don’t whine. Never did. And when I see a little one throwing a hissy-fit, and parents giving in to keep the peace, I know no good is going to come of it.
A friend of mine was complaining that her son was behaving very badly in the store with her. He wanted something, and cried and cried, repeating the name of the thing he wanted over and over. She knew he was tired and hungry so she let him have it to kept he peace. Alex was listening to this retelling and said, “Hey, Mom, you’d never have done that.”
“That’s right, I never would.” She laughed imagining it.
My response to the situation would have been to kneel down before my child and very quietly say, “If you continue to behave like this, I can promise you that you will never again get [the item]. So you decide.” And I would have stuck to it.
When my kids were small, from time to time a fight would break out over a particular toy they both wanted. I negotiated and discussed compromise with them, but that didn’t help a lot. They were just too little to understand the concepts. So then one day I said, “Every time you guys fight over a toy, I’m going to take the toy away and no one will have it.” One demonstration of my commitment was required to prove the point. That did it. No more fighting. Since they both stood to lose the toy regardless of who was “right”, the fighting ended.
People get all warped about what other people – including their kids – think about them. They know what the right thing to do in a circumstance is, but they second-guess themselves on how others will react. There’s the mom who knows her children are not old enough or responsible enough to take care of a pet, but buys them a kitten anyway because she can’t take the disappointment on their faces. There’s the girlfriend who wants to go to a party, but her boy is sick in bed at home, so she resentfully stays home, doing her duty, all the while seething at missing the fun.
In my world, either I’d want the kitty or not want the kitty. But I wouldn’t have an unrealistic expectation (the kids will learn responsibility) and then be disappointed. In my world I’d stay home with my boy because I wanted to or I’d go to the party because I wanted to. I wouldn’t do what was “expected” and then seethe with resentment.
One of the things I’ve witnessed (and gasped at) is the comment some people make to families with one child about how “selfish” those parents are for not providing a sibling. Really? It’s selfish to know you only have enough money to successfully raise one child? It’s selfish to know you only have enough energy to deal with one? It would be better to strain your resources, financial and/or emotional, to satisfy someone else’s sense of how many children are enough? This is a particularly tough thing to hear (that you’re selfish) if it’s coming from your elders: parents, aunties, grands.
If you want to do what’s right for you, then figure out what you really want and make that your reality. A new kitten? Is that what YOU want (for yourself, as well as for your children). No? Then nix-nay on the kit-tay.
Never mind worrying about seeming “mean” when you have to say “no”. As Billy wrote, “To thine own self be true, and it must follow as night the day, though canst not then be false to any man.”
August 20, 2010 at 7:13 am
Thanks for this one Gail. I am an only and my Mom always told me that she could do more one than she could for three. There are pros and cons to everything. I always heard from people, “you must be really spoiled”. Maybe so, but I don’t whine, i don’t shuffle my feet when I walk and I don’t snap my gum. I also learned how to share my toys.
The con now that am older is that i don’t have the anyone (sibling) to share the aging parent issues with. I know it will be ok in the long run.
People need to do what they know they can do.
Thanks again for this message as well as the one from yesterday. If I was keeping up with the Jonses, I live in a bigger house and drive sporty little car, etc. Have a great weaken everyone
August 20, 2010 at 7:13 am
but I really wanted that new kitten! Gail, I like your style of parenting, I guess it is because that is the way I was brought up as well. Fight over and toy and the toy disappeared, Cry and carry on in a grocery store and we’d get a sever talking too. It is the way I want to parent my children when I have them.
I’m extremely thankful to my father for the way he brought us up. I’m very close with him now because if it.
regards,
Jason
August 20, 2010 at 7:14 am
Oops. Great weekend!!!
August 20, 2010 at 7:30 am
A kindred parent-er! Yay! I thought I was the only one who was ready to drop baby #2 any minute that strapped toddler #1 underneath her arm and stormed out of Tim Hortons without the donut and chocolate milk…I also thought I was the only one who ever left a cart full of groceries at the store to bring Toddler #2 home only to go back alone and find it exactly where I left it (along with some peace and sanity).
I have siblings that had one child only, and I think it was brilliant to recognize early on that one was plenty for them. A second would’ve been a life-long nightmare for them possibly, and who wants to resent a child??
August 20, 2010 at 7:30 am
Ohhh, and yeah, by ‘Drop’ I meant give birth, not actually drop…no need to call CAS!
August 20, 2010 at 7:46 am
Coincidental timing — I was just remarking to a friend with a 1 1/2 year old, about how when my kids were younger, and they’d throw a fit in a mall, I’d walk away — I’d watch them from the corner of my eye, and walk very slowly, but I would not give them the attention that would reinforce their behaviour — I did not get nice looks from the other people around, but soon enough, my daughter would come running, and all would be well. My eldest hasn’t had a tantrum since the age of 3, she’s 14, and her way of showing she’s upset are much more subtle (aah, sarcasm in a teenager, such a lovely thing
) My youngest is a different can of worms, and, at 9, she still has her ‘meltdowns’, but it tends to be when she’s tired, at home, not in public. I watched a friends’ 9 year old on the weekend throw one huge fit, and his parents kept talking to him, instead of ignoring his unacceptable behaviour — drove me nuts!
One thing I’m struggling with right now, is, while I didn’t actually PROMISE my children they could have dance lessons, I’d said I’d look into it, and LIKELY they could. Well, I got the package in the mail yesterday, and at $1000+ for the 2 of them, not including the outfits, shoes, driving there twice (20 minutes each way x 2 kids), well, it just may not happen… I’m feeling pretty mean right now if I say no… my eldest will be in dance at school, but she hasn’t had an extra-curricular activity in 3 years; my youngest is taking guitar lessons, just finished soccer, and REALLY needs a regular ACTIVE activity… Not sure what to do…
August 20, 2010 at 8:29 am
What a dilemma Cas. I don’t have kids but can relate to the stories. It’s how we were brought up so tantrums in stores were a first class ticket to home, up to our rooms, and no television that night (tv was a big thing for us growing up).
I have a slightly different story – more about being called not only mean but cheap at work because I don’t contribute to the at least once a month retirement gift, birthday gift etc of my co-workers who I’ve only worked with for four years and for some barely know because they aren’t in a department I supervise. Plus, the favoritism drives me nuts – if they’re going to do that then it needs to be for everyone and they like to pick and choose who they hold a retirement party for. Then of course if I go to the party I have to pay for my meal, drinks, and help cover the cost of the meal of the person retiring.
August 20, 2010 at 8:30 am
When we were kids, acting up in public was NOT an option; all it took was one look from my Mom, and we knew we were in trouble! We refer to it now as the “Patented Frannie Look”, and my sister and I both inhereted it! SWEET!! My parents never gave in to a tantrum; they’d say when we were ready to talk calmly, they’d talk to us about the situation. When my husband and I (who are childless and are staying that way) see kids throwing tantrums and the parents giving in, we can’t believe how much “power” these kids have over the people that are supposed to be raising them. We look at each other a both say, “I’d have NEVER gotten away with that!”
Hubby and I discussed children long before we got married, and we were both totally on the sme page about not having any. My MIL asked us shortly after we got married how long they’d have to wait for grandchildren; their son said they’ll be waiting a loooong time because we weren’t having any. MIL said, “But you’re married now, you’re SUPPOSED to have them.” I told her I don’t recall there every being a law written that said we HAVE to procreate. I really couldn’t give a rat’s behind if people think we’re selfish because we opted not to have children… it’s none of their business.
August 20, 2010 at 8:42 am
When we went on our super tight budget because hubby lost his job, people were incredulous that we weren’t buying things, even little things like a coffee, or a new umbrella when the old one got a small tear. Hey, it still stopped the rain and we were in a situation of “make it do or go without”. People were so shocked at our “no we can’t afford it” attitude that they’d get a judgemental look on their face but at least not say anything. They truly did not understand and that was hard for me at the time, but hubby and I were in it together, supporting each other in our sacrifices, and not in debt.
August 20, 2010 at 8:44 am
lol – our daughter is two now and I am constantly being questioned by people as to when the second one will come.
We made the very concious decision that we will have one child – we evaluated the time, energy, resources (or lack thereof) available to us at this time in our lives and we took a hard look at our future goals and have determined that is what we want. We also decided that later in our lives, when we have more financial resources we would like to seriously consider doing foster care. We feel that this fits our lives. Do I from time to time feel sad that she won’t experience a sibiling…sure, but it passes when I think of the wonderful friends we have, and I know that she wont’ ever be alone.
And so yes, it is certainly frustrating to get ’tisk tisked’ by almost-strangers when we say we’re not having any more. I actually had a person in my office, in a professional capacity, who saw the picture of my daughter and commented about it being selfish to just have one (of course in a ’semi joking’ tone). I didn’t know what to say….and what I thought, well.. that can’t be repeated here, lol.
Michelle and Cas, I remember several occasions as a child where the toy disappeared or the grocery cart got left in the aisle and we went home. I plan to take the same approach with our daughter. Kids learn by experience – they are practical and very literal learners at first. Fighting = no toy. That sticks!
August 20, 2010 at 8:48 am
I’m with you on this one Gail. My parenting style is very similar.
I set expectations before we go out. If I have no intentions of buying a treat or toy that day, I ensure my son knows this. He can look, and if he really wants something, I encourage him to save his money for it.
We only have one child. He will be 5 in November. It is very important to me that he has a sense of value and does not feel entitled. So far, I think I’m doing well.
I am strict about manners and I don’t put up with whining.
Just when I think I’m the worst mom in the world, he says “Momma, I love you.”
As for having more kids, I would love for him to have siblings, but realistically we feel it would be very difficult financially. Plus, I don’t know that I have the patience for 2. With one, I can afford to put money aside for his education and enroll him in recreation activities. We make sure he is around other kids a lot. This weekend we are going camping. We’re bringing another little boy along. Buy the end of the weekend, they will have had fun together and be ready to go their separate ways! He will grow up with strong bonds because we will encourage it.
As for other siblings, I know many people who do not get along with their siblings, and when it comes to caring for sick parents, there’s no guarantee the siblings will step it up. I am lucky to have 2 wonderful brothers, but one is across the country and the other can’t get out of his own way. As the oldest, I know I’ll be the one to look after the folks should that need arise.
I won’t totally rule out having another child, but at the same time, I really enjoy the age my son is now. We can go hiking together and biking etc. If we add a baby to the family, it would be difficult to be able to spend that time together, but you adjust right? My brothers are 7 & 10 years younger than me. I often feel like an only child because of that difference.
August 20, 2010 at 8:56 am
I have 3 kids – 2 are quite easy to manage – they inherently follow rules and are less intense emotionally. My middle one, though, is a challenge. Inpite of (fairly) consistent parenting, she challenges me regularly. One demonstration of firm parenting (like Gail’s example) would not correct her behaviour. Just last week, she spent 2 days in her bedroom followed by 2 days grounded to the house. This week, I’ve caught her repeating the same offence that got her grounded last week… sigh… She’s spent more time staring at the same 4 bedroom walls this summer yet, we’re still challenged by a certain misbehaviour… what’s really the answer to this problem? I don’t know… maybe just time and maturity?
Anyway, I’m certain I “appear” mean as a parent to many other parents and especially to my daughter’s friends, who can’t imagine a 2 day long time out, when most parents time outs are the number of minutes that match the child’s age! In this case, I should have only given an 8 minute time out. Well, if a 48 hr time out plus role playing plus teaching time and a quiz plus brainstorming and practicing anger management strategies together did virtually nothing, I doubt an 8 min time out would have helped!
I might seem to be mean at times, but it’s only because I love her and want to see her succeed in life. Tough-love, isn’t that what they call it?
And can I share a pet-peeve of mine? When parents have children at a park and say “don’t throw wood chips” as the child throws another handful at a little friend. Then the parent says “If you throw wood chips one more time, we’re going home” to which the child throws another handful. Then the parent says “That’s it, we’re leaving” and goes to grab the child who then arches back and screams “NOOO”. Then the parents says “alright, but don’t throw anymoe wood chips”, which the child promptly does in full sight of the parent who then turns away and throws her hands up in the air in defeat. Ugh!
August 20, 2010 at 9:00 am
@Cas Your kids would much rather go to college or university, or not have to have you living in their basement. They won’t even remember not being able to dance. There are tonnes of community centre activities that are not that expensive. If you can’t afford it, you can’t.
August 20, 2010 at 9:04 am
As an only child, I have pretty strong feelings about the # of children issue. My husband and I are just at the ‘thinking about kids’ stage, not yet set on having them, although we are leaning in that direction. I’ve always maintained that I will have 0 or 2 kids, but never 1. I never asked my parents why they only had 1 child, but I know they could have financially afforded to do so, and I wasn’t a terrible kid (as far as I know;) ). I was not spoiled and hated it when people threw the ’spoiled only child’ phrase around without even getting to know someone (as in “oh, your an only child? You must be spoiled!”). Yes I learned to share, and had a few friends, and grew into a happy adult, but being an only child sucked…it was incredibly lonely! It’s not hard for me to imagine some financially successful couples choosing to have only 1 child so that they can still afford that luxury car or fancy house, and I certainly consider that selfish (I can say this because if I had not had the only child experience, I could very well see my husband and I selfishly making that choice…we can be a little selfish at times). I would never tell someone they were being selfish for making that choice, but if they asked my opinion, I would certainly discourage having only 1 child.
August 20, 2010 at 9:14 am
My SO told me that he wishes I would have had a boy because I only have a daughter and she knows how to behave (now age 13). His soon-to-be 20-year-old son has the table manners of a four year old. I told him (years ago) that an effective solution would be to say, “If you cannot eat properly at the table, then you can’t have dinner tonight. You are excused. We’ll try again tomorrow.” Going hungry for a night would likely have resolved the table manners issue, but Daddy with all his DFG (divorced father guilt) couldn’t bear to stand firm. As a result, I make every effort to not share a table with this young man. Kinda sad, eh?
Too many parents are worried about their kids being angry at them and not being “friends.” I have no such worry; I’m my daughter’s parent, not her buddy.
August 20, 2010 at 9:19 am
@ Patricia: I’m just guessing, but I would think being an only child would be an individual experience — I would think the experience would depend a lot on how much family time one experienced, and where you live (ie: the neighbourhood and the # of children the same age), etc. I was the youngest of 2, both of us girls, but that did not mean that we had the same interests; she’s 3 1/2 years older, and maybe for a few years we played together, and maybe a couple of years as teens we hung out, but those aren’t my most memorable moments growing up; oh, and we do not get along today — we’re VERY different. My eldest daughter was an only child for 5 years (we struggled with the idea of having another, esp. after a miscarriage). We made sure that she had lots of activities with other kids, and took her on lots of vacations, and spent lots of moments with her; she still asked if we could buy her a sister at a yard sale (LOL!). I think having one or more or no children is a personal choice… how you deal with it may also be different than someone else… and, just because someone has a sibling, doesn’t mean that they will be your friend either, or, unbelievably, share the same values… I know…
@ Kat: I’m not sure what my issue is with the whole thing… we could pay the fees without going into debt, and some sacrifices could be made so it’s not too tight, but I guess I wonder how ‘worth’ it it is… Like that Olympic skiier’s family, who took him out of hockey because of all the driving and sitting in the stands, that’s not family time, plus the money that it takes… but maybe I’m just selfish, and don’t want to give up my time or money that easily… that’s 2 nights of spending $$, and giving up ‘family’ time, plus one night of guitar… but maybe I am selfish…
August 20, 2010 at 9:24 am
Gail – thank you for the comment on the one-child that should have sibling! I’m glad I’m not alone in thinking that way. For a long time now I’ve known that I only want one – that that is all I could handle and provide for and still have a good relationship with my partner. Whenever I get dragged into that conversation and I say I just want one, people are so horrified and argue with me that I would deprive my child and they would end up as lonely, selfish and spoiled adults because I didn’t give them a sibling.
August 20, 2010 at 9:28 am
If we tried to have a tantrum as kids my mother would stop us by saying..”you want to cry?…I’ll give you something to cry about!”…end of tantrum…those were the days….
August 20, 2010 at 9:32 am
I am the mother of a “much adored only child”, as we like to say now that he is 21.
It was not my choice to only have one child, but c’est la vie.
One of my co-workers is fond of saying “Bill Cosby says you’re not really a parent if you only have one child”.
After hearing this pap repeated once too often (we have several colleagues who are mothers of only children for varying reasons) I became mean and snapped right back.
My son never had tantrums and never asked for things. He simply knew better and as a young adult will comment on others children by saying “You’d never have done that”. Funny.
@ Amelia, I expect people are less judgemental regarding your candor about finances and are more likely embarassed. After all, no one ever admits to that !!
August 20, 2010 at 9:35 am
I too have always been asked why I only have 1 child. But, unfortunately, it was due to a large number of miscarriages and not because of a lack of money. We could have afforded it, but I guess I was blessed with the best angel for a son that they broke the mold!
I came from a large family (7 kids) and each of my siblings have from 2 to 6 children each. So, although my son has no siblings, he does have a large number of cousins and friends. Our house was always full of the neighbourhood’s children and we were so blessed to have them.
In addition, we have lived on only one salary for the past 17 years as my husband took care of him at home. We have managed to pay off our mortgage, send him to university and purchase an investment property which has a small mortgage on it now. We kept our expenses low and our payments to our debts high and also did not “keep up with the Joneses” which happened to be our friends!
August 20, 2010 at 9:39 am
Gail, I’d like to know what you did to keep your kids from whining! My daughter’s fiancee has two beautiful little girls, 8 and 10 that she’s finding a bit challenging, particularly when the youngest throws fits and starts crying, whining – any suggestions/thoughts from anyone would be much appreciated.
August 20, 2010 at 9:49 am
people get so uppity when it comes to what ‘kids should have’. that’s the same technique that advertisers and car salespeople use to get you to buy the latest, ’safest’, best-est (insert object here) for your child, because if you don’t, you’re a bad parent who doesn’t care about your child. that’s also the same technique that people use to argue that same-sex couples shouldn’t be allowed to have children (“kids need a father and a mother”) or to argue that one child is too few (spoiled) and 8 is too many (what’s wrong with you that you need so many kids?).
who are these people, and why are they talking so much? granted, i don’t have kids, but i have a LOT of siblings and a LOT of cousins and quite a few nieces and nephews, so i think i know a bit about kids. and i know this: the single largest contributing factor to my happy childhood was having so many people who loved me and told me so every day. if your kid doesn’t have siblings or cousins, connect them with caring adults, kids that are a few years older, and kids their own age who will show them affection. give them that, and they’ll forgive you the lack of toys, siblings, father/mother, and/or summer cottage trips. also, maybe we were freaky kids, but in my family, toys = books, which are way cheaper than toys.
August 20, 2010 at 9:55 am
Great article! I really like the point about people’s expectations and having only one child. Right now my partner and I are child free are we are planning for the future, buying a home, a small wedding etc. And we’ve said we can only have kids if we can afford it, so if we can afford one later and can have one, great. And when the time comes and we decide to have 2, that’s great too.
August 20, 2010 at 10:24 am
I love how so many of your posts focus on the importance of doing what you really want and what is important to you, and not getting carried away with the opinions/expectations of others.
One thing I would love to see a post on, though, is how to determine what you really want, and what will make you happy. Or maybe all this takes is personal exploration and experience. We have so many options in life, sometimes it is hard to know if we are choosing the right path.
August 20, 2010 at 10:48 am
@ Saver Queen:
I’ve mentioned this in more than one post, and I’m sorry if it’s becoming a bit “old”, but truly, the thing that I do that works so well for me, I share it every chance I get, is based on “The Secret” strategy. And, it’s simple. I write a journal entry for the end of the year, season, decade, whatever, as if my life was exactly the way that I wanted it. (ie: This summer was absolutely perfect. Our family had lots of 1:1 time and a lot of fun socializing with friends. We didn’t have a vacation, but we had a weekend away and enjoyed eating new foods and exploring from our hotel….” you get the idea. It helps me realize what I find most important in life; every entry helps me get to know me and my values better. At the end of the season, I read what I’ve written, and it always comes true, maybe with an exception because I stuck something in there that really didn’t matter to me in the long run. I do this with my financial dreams as well. “It’s Christmas, and it’s so nice to know that we won’t be struggling because we have $X in the bank…” It works!!! By the time Christmas rolls around, I do have that in the bank, and sometimes it seems with the greatest of luck and less planning than it should have taken…
August 20, 2010 at 10:51 am
My children are 4 years apart and that works for us. I even have a hard time coping with that age difference (the youngest is 3 months). I had a male customer tell me that kids need to be close together in age so that they can be good friends and play together. That was nice for him to say but he didnthave to carry them! We have to to do what is best for us and our partner.
August 20, 2010 at 10:53 am
Oh, and it works for your career too…. I had a new boss, was worried about it, and wrote “My new boss is great. She’s using me and my work as examples for others to follow…” and she did!!!! She posted my work on the board for all to see… never had someone do that before, never could have predicted that would have happened, and it did!!! It’s truly amazing.
August 20, 2010 at 11:03 am
Everytime I see a ‘but I want it tantrum’ I turn to my boys and thank them for never having done that to me. DS1 cried for 30 min straight once in walmart but he was 4 months old and I am pretty sure it was colic
I forget sometimes what a warped sense of humour (not unlike my own) DS2 has. One day while overhearing a tantrum 2 cashiers over, he started in on an ‘ I want. If you love me you’d buy’. I could see the twinkle in his eyes and knew he was kidding but DS1 didn’t. DS1’s head snapped around and said “what are you??new?????” to DS2 before he realized his brother was kidding. Tears were running down my cheeks from laughing so hard.
August 20, 2010 at 11:14 am
@Cas – of course growing up as an only child is an individual experience, just as growing up with siblings is. Some siblings get along and others don’t. To clarify, I had loving, well-intentioned parents, I was in lots of activities as a child, I had friends, I lived in a neighborhood with lots of other kids, went on vacations (my parents even took a friend along with us on some vacations- which I still feel incredible gratitude for, that was really generous of them), and yes, it was still lonely. I wasn’t a depressed loner, but looking back, I had a lonely childhood. I also observed my friends and their siblings a lot …none of the siblings I observed were friends
But, as adults, the majority of them are friendly and get along with each other…they always will share childhood memories and a family bond that I don’t have. Of course, everyone’s story is different, but I’m willing to be that a lot of only children have had similar experiences.
August 20, 2010 at 11:16 am
Hi Gail great post. I too was brought up with a no nonsense approach to parenting. If I didn’t like what my mom made for dinner I went hungry, and after 4-5 years old I learned to make PB&J, mac and cheese etc.
I think a lot of parents these days have no control over their kids. I always say I have very little tolerance for other peoples kids, but I love them and want a few of my own, but under my own terms.
As a person who is currently childless and works in Children and Youth Services, I can say those who dare call someone selfish for only having one child, shame on you. I’ve seen so many children that their parents can’t afford to take care of them, or don’t want them so they give them up to Child services. This not a life you want for any kid. Don’t get me wrong, we do our best to provide for these kids, and give them everything they need, but even so, being a child in the system is not a tea party and many never get the start in life they need to be properly adjusted, independent adults. So next time someone criticizes you for only having one child, say “I know I can afford this child, and give it what it needs to be a happy adjusted adult and keep it from going into the child welfare system. I don’t want to risk the possibility of not being financially able or mentally capable to care for my child and then have to condemn my children to a life of bouncing from foster home to group home to jail, etc.”
To those with only one child:
If you have only one child that is happy and you can properly care for it, thank you for being a responsible adult and keeping that child out of a system that is not capable of supporting the children it already has. Thank you for freeing up resource’s so that we can try to provide other children who didn’t have responsible parents (like you), the things they need to survive and make something of themselves.
I can’t remember who said it, but the person who said that you’re not really a parent if you have only one child is a fool. The role of parent is not defined by how many kids you have, it’s by the quality of the human being you nurtured to be a responsible, respectable, independent and happy adult. Whether you have the child yourself, adopt, become a foster parent (if you can do this please do we need more loving foster parents in this world!) or simply a guardian of a child, you are a parent. Don’t let some fool tell you otherwise. Being a parent is an important job and it shouldn’t be frowned upon by anyone. Shame on them, not you.
Amanda
August 20, 2010 at 11:19 am
If you can’t have children or have one because of health issues or great financial issues
I can understand that. There is always adoption and wait couple of years until you improve your financial situation.
But I have trouble understanding people who have no children (DINKs)
or one child because they made a decision !!!
They decide to have better material life and ask somebody else to carry
burden of preserving our country and our present life style.
I do consider that selfish. Let me explain ….
Imagine we all will decide to have no children or just one. You will have better material life now but as you get older you will be relying on somebodies else children to provide healthcare/support services, basically everything.
You’ve lived your life in luxury because you didn’t have to spend time and money on children but at the end of your life you will require help from those children that you didn’t have.
That is selfish.
DINKS and people with one child are telling us that it’s their choice and we should leave them be.
I am sorry but it’s not that easy.
Demographics in all advance democracies look horrible and Canada without immigration would have fertility rate of 1.4. With immigration it is 2.0.
To preserve your country and life style you need fertility rate of 2.1.
If we all decide to have one child our population will start to shrink and our lifestyle will decline.
Russia went from 150 mil people to 145 mil people in 10 years. Ask Putin what is his biggest worry and he will tell you that Russians are dying out because Russians decided to have no children or one child.
Once that process starts it’s very hard to reverse. Sweden and Russia increased support for moms and families but fertility rate didn’t increase. Why ? Because it’s not about money. Money is important part of it but not major part. Major part is cultural. We need to talk about necessity to have children, it should be ingrained in our culture that without 2.1 kids in one family we will die out.
You cannot buy service from somebody that doesn’t exist because you decided to not have him or her.
Sorry for long rant but I have issue with DINKS and single child parents.
I am single child parent now and went through whole process of thinking to stay with one child.
Hey I can provide better care/vacation/university for one child.
But then a bulb went off in my head and I realized that I am selfish.
We are trying for second child.
Many people argue that they can’t handle more than one child. Bullshi$. If you can handle one you can handle 2. That is lame excuse.
If you do your best as parent and spend time with children it will be enough.
You don’t have to be perfect mom.
End of my rant. Looking forward to your replies.
August 20, 2010 at 11:35 am
Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking other to live as one wishes to live. – Oscar Wilde
August 20, 2010 at 11:36 am
Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live. – Oscar Wilde
Oops missed the “s” on others the first time.
August 20, 2010 at 11:45 am
Martin, not everyone wants kids, and there is nothing wrong with that.
And if there’s more people dying than being born, is that really such a bad thing? Our world as it is can’t support the needs to everyone that is already living, so it can’t be all bad that countries aren’t able to maintain the growth that once happened.
We are running out of resources and land, so in fact it is not necessarily selfish that there are people who have decided to not have kids.
Some people have jobs that don’t allow them to commit to raising a child – is it fair for a child to be raised by parents who are never around for them? Is it fair for adults to be expected to participate in an institution they want no part of? Is it fair for children to be expected to live in conditions that aren’t healthy or safe, just because there is an expectation that every adult must have one child?
I don’t think so.
August 20, 2010 at 11:56 am
@ Martin – We are DINKs (but seriously considering kids in 2 years when our student debt is paid off), and I totally agree with you re: people choosing 0 or 1 kid for the lifestyle it affords them. I’m curious to hear your take on the “the world is over populated, there are already too many kids in the world already” argument. I sometimes get that line from my husband, but haven’t formed my own opinion yet, so I’m curious to hear your views.
August 20, 2010 at 12:23 pm
As both an only child and a DINK there are a number of serious issues that need to be resolved before I can consider having even one child:
1. The fundamental flaw in the current economic structure that requires increasing population and consumption. It presumes that limitless growth in either is possible or even desirable. I can’t ethically have a child if I know they, or my grandchildren are going to grow up in a doomed world. I would much rather put the efforts I would put into raising children into improving the world beyond my little corner.
2. How could I ethically have a child of my own when I know that there are so many children in the world whose lives could be made so much better with that energy? I mean I care enough about animals to only adopt from shelters and I generally try to adopt older animals too since I know they are less likely to find a home. People always try to argue to me that children deserve more than pets, so should I not also put in at least that same consideration for children and aim to improve the life of children who are already born rather than worrying about having my 2.1 children to support a flawed economic model? I do not hold the arrogant view that for children to be worth my effort they must somehow be of my blood.
To Martin directly, what the heck is wrong with our population growing by immigration anyway? I’m not only the proud descendent of immigrants (as most of us in Canada are), I am also proudly the spouse of someone who got their Canadian Citizenship 2 years ago. Immigration is the foundation of the both Canada and the U.S. To look down upon it is to look down upon the entire social foundation of both of these countries.
Regards,
Morgan
August 20, 2010 at 12:24 pm
@ Martin. Gosh, I had a daughter at 32, was divorced at 35. By that time I’m a high-risk pregnancy and unmarried. Should I have gone out and gotten knocked up just to keep the birth rate up?
August 20, 2010 at 12:35 pm
@ Martin
What is selfish is having children to have someone to take care of you when you’re old. Your children should not be expected to take care of you in your old age, although it’s nice if they choose to do so. What is unselfish is making sure that you plan for those later years and have the necessary funds or insurance to pay for the support you require, without being a burden on your children.
August 20, 2010 at 12:44 pm
@Patricia — I understand the “only child” vs “lonely child” all too well. I am a “lonely” child, with 4 siblings. They all have a great relationship — I find myself an outsider looking in most of the time. When we have a family “command performance”, I find myself listening to their stories….that, or I just start doing whatever clean-up work needs to be done so that my parents can have a good visit with them (otherwise my mother does all the work!).
August 20, 2010 at 12:45 pm
It’s funny that not having kids, or only have one being classified as being “selfish”… My sister has 0 kids, I have 4. Whenever people start hounding her about having kids she says, “Oh, i’m never having kids, my sister has enough for the both of us, she has 4, so i’m off the hook!”. lol! Seems to work for both of us!
And she knows she’s welcome to ‘borrow’ any (or all) of mine anytime she likes… haha!!
August 20, 2010 at 12:56 pm
I dearly want to give my child a sibling. So far, no luck.
After I’m gone, I don’t want him to be lonely in the world. If I didn’t have any kids, it would be different, but now that I have one, my responsibility is towards him. Responsibility is not a dirty word.
My priorities are: love, health, education, fun, wealth. Yes if I only have one, he’ll probably be more financially secure, but that’s a bogus reason.
So far what I’ve taken from Gail is how to resist greed. Not how to hoard money. If the message is how to hoard money, then count me out.
I resent money, I hate the fact that it’s the only thing that counts for so many people, I hate how it reduces us to such a low, I hate the things that it makes people do.
Having a child has changed my perspective on the world. It opened a big wound in my chest and now I feel everything so much more. Nothing seemed as real as it is now. I never cared so much about just myself, life was a game. Now it’s real.
Vote NOT Rob Ford. Thank you.
August 20, 2010 at 12:56 pm
[off to go count her money in the bank right now]
August 20, 2010 at 1:10 pm
@patricia
Any kid can be lonely growing up, whether or not they are only children.
My brother is just 2 years older than me, and we always got along, as far as I remember, but we didn’t do much together, because we had very different interests.
It just happened that the area my parents picked to raise us was perfect for my brother (acreage to ride bikes, drive vehicles, and learn how to fix cars), but was not ideal for me (isolated, no friends within walking distance).
August 20, 2010 at 1:48 pm
As a father of an only child (planned) I thought I’d weigh in here on the debate.
@ Martin – my son’s daycare costs $1800/month for a 1 yr old, and 1275 for his age now (3). Another child is prohibitively expensive for us without moving to the country, and I like toronto. I think your opinion is valid but am not sure your considering the validity of others. If the country were truly concerned about birthrate, the govt would make childcare easier. They don’t, so they aren’t, no?
August 20, 2010 at 1:53 pm
@Cas I understand, but do you have their college money saved? do you have your retirement secure? (I don’t think I saw that listed)…. anyhow… good luck.
@Martin You’re funny. If we look at a couple who chooses to have no kids, they pay taxes for people’s kids to go to school. If they have more money, they are taxed at a higher rate. You’re also assuming that they do not have other family members that have kids that they may assist. It is not selfish to not have kids, childless couples still contribute to the community as a whole. Also without all those DINKS guess where the economy might go? who would by those 2 seater sports cars?
I think it’s selfish when people who are *messed up* have kids…. there should be a program to become a parent – instead of letting *stupid* people have kids…
August 20, 2010 at 1:55 pm
@ Martin: I don’t think we’re in a place that doesn’t have enough people, as I see more and more homes being built, fields turned into shopping malls, and housing developments. If it was a buyer’s market, and there were just so many empty houses and buildings as a result of a decreasing population, I might see some sense into what you said.
It is selfish to presume that your children will get along and be friends and support each other and you, their parents when they are older. And to say that it is selfish to have one child, that’s just plain ignorant. My sister couldn’t take care of the one child she had. That wasn’t due to financial reasons either, just due to a sheer lack of parenting/social skills. For her to have brought another child into this world would be a huge burden — my niece is now 22 and has no marketable skills (despite an education) due to a huge lack of role modelling from her parents, and a mom who has undiagnosed mental issues. She also has no self-help skills, and lived a very sheltered life, and has never been in a hotel in her life (again, NOT due to finances)… my parents are in their 60’s and are looking after her. DON’T tell me that my sister should have had another child. How dare people judge others that way! Each person has their reasons for their lifestyle, and if they aren’t hurting anyone, and aren’t CRITICIZING others choices, power to them.
August 20, 2010 at 1:55 pm
@ Martin P.S. I’m not calling you stupid, I have no idea. Just saying in general ya know?
Please don’t think I’m mean….. ;-D
August 20, 2010 at 2:00 pm
@ Kat: Yeah we have RESP’s in place, and we both have work pension plans, plus a plan to max out our RRSP’s in the next 5 years, as well as building up our EF in TFSA’s. Our mortgage will be paid in 3 years, and so will our car loans. And, I’m not quite 40
I did speak with the kids today, and both have said they wouldn’t be terribly disappointed, if we agree’d to go family skating once per week, as well as things like swimming, indoor mini-golf, and snow tubing once a month, where they could take turns bringing a friend. So life is good! No running around/lots of family time/probably same amount of $$
August 20, 2010 at 2:04 pm
OK…I am a SINK and an only and very happy about it. I made a conscious decision not to have children early in my life and do not regret it. Growing up as an only, my family situation was not ideal and having two parents that should not have been together in the first place, made for a lot of issues that have stayed with me through adulthood. I would not want to pass those patterns onto any child and at 46, I am still dealing with the effects of those issues. Some have resolved themselves but others have not.
Whether or not you have children is a purely personal decision between you and yourself or you and your partner. I see kids who have everything given to them and never have to earn anything and have absolutely no idea what the real world is about and god knows how they are going to handle the rest of their lives. My mom was just like many of the posters’ here did not take any crap from me. I was an only but I wasn’t lonely. If I wanted something outside my allowance I had to earn it. Was I a little spoiled – of course…most people if they are honest spoil their children at some point.
Life is a choice and everyone has free will and should live according to their own conscience. We all have our opinions and are entitled to those opinions. I am fine with my decision just as everyone else should be fine with their own decision whatever it may be.
August 20, 2010 at 2:10 pm
Ok, I will try to answer each one of you. But you have to give me some time
, my 1.5 year old is up and I can’t do it now. I will come back when he goes for afternoon nap.
August 20, 2010 at 2:13 pm
how on earth is it selfish to have only one child? i only want one, and i don’t think i am being selfish. i want any child i have to reach his or her full potential and i feel i can do that best by focusing on only one kid instead of dividing everything. i want my kid to feel loved and to feel a strong sense of belonging to the family. siblings can be real jerks–kids are so mean to each other–and frankly i wish i had been an only child. instead, as the middle child and the only girl, i felt excluded. i ended up being very shy and not making many friends, so despite having two siblings, i was very lonely. kids don’t need siblings to not feel lonely–they need actively involved and interested parents and lots of friends and community involvement.
August 20, 2010 at 2:19 pm
and I am so NOT having 6 kids just to prove I’m–what–a patriotic Canadian? Indeed, by not having more than one child, I am showing a care for the environment we all live in……my kid may have a kid, and that kid will need clean water and air. People who have more than one kid could be said to be selfish. I’m not saying that, but it could be said.
August 20, 2010 at 2:31 pm
The whole issue of kids and money… Gail, I would like to see a post on “oh, you’ll get by!” or “oh, you’ll manage!”
Here’s the connection:
My BF and I are living the Gail-approved lifestyle, budgeting for mat leave BEFORE we get pregnant. We’ve told a lot of friends, and some of them look at us like we’re bananas. They actually tell us that we are wasting our efforts, because “when you have kids, you won’t be able to keep that up! but don’t worry, don’t bother planning ahead, because in the end… you’ll manage!” Like, magically, we will manage. Planning is useless but hope in the power of “it’ll all work out” is reasonable… Huh? Really?
August 20, 2010 at 2:39 pm
This whole post rocks Gail… great message.
August 20, 2010 at 3:16 pm
I am an only child and my son is an only child, my husband has 4 siblings, none of whom a: get along, or b: contact each other, which I find very sad. My son has Autism and ADHD so his “tantrums” were related to his Autism and never around an “I want this or I want that”, he is now 10 and knows that despite his challenges if he EVER decided to throw a tantrum a) no whatever he was throwing the tantrum about, EVER, and b: he would have serious consequences (more chores) He works at our family business almost daily (and it’s not an easy business – we recycle pallets, so he’s hammering in nails most of the day) and we collect pop can’s, wine bottles, beer bottles etc to make ends meet, I’ve gone back to work almost full time 6 – 7 hours a day, which has been hard on him but he’s a little trooper. My friend has a 21 year old “basement dweller” who can’t keep a job, and has NO work ethic, I just pray that my son still has this work ethic after he goes through puberty. I thought I could never have kids and am proud as heck of my little man cub!
August 20, 2010 at 3:19 pm
Financially we have some real estate (rental properties) that hopefully will be both retirement earnings and something we can pass on to our son!
August 20, 2010 at 4:51 pm
Our son is four. We’re still constantly asked/told we need to have another kid. We don’t want one – we have a full happy life, and so does he. My advice when people talk to you about how many you have or don’t have – smile and gently say that it’s a personal decision, and that you don’t discuss your personal bodily functions or sex life in public.
August 20, 2010 at 5:25 pm
@Emma
I am not talking about world. My view is for Canada.
It’s true that world population is growing and general consensus is that world can support up to 50B people.
Food was never this cheap as now, just ask our parents. If our Canadian society will start shrinking our society will disappear and another civilization will take over.
If you have long term job that doesn’t allow you to have a child or raise a child then something is very wrong.
Your children are your future, they will carry your message. If we don’t have children there is no future.
I am not promoting that we have to grow to 50B people on Earth but to preserve our society we have to at least replace ourselves and that means at least 2.1 children per couple.
@Patricia
I was the same as your husband but this excuse is flawed and he is hiding behind it.
I was thinking that there are many children in the world and I don’t need to contribute.
This is true (world population is still growing).
But those children are not children from your society.
If you want to preserve and expand your values, you need children born or adopted to your society.
It does no good to Canada that there are more children in Africa.
@Morgan
1. Another argument I was telling myself. I can’t bring my child to this horrible world. Frankly that is misleading view. I believe today’s world is the best it ever been. We are lucky to live in present time. We didn’t experience any significant hardship like our grandparent and parents did (World War 1 or 2 for example, 12 hours working days, no maternity leave etc …). We have cheaper food, travel. We live longer, we have free healthcare, pensions and so on … .
2. Adopt or give birth to a child here in Canada will accomplish the same goal – survival of our society. I was thinking about adoption too but because the process take years and I can have my own children I decided against it.
3. I do not look down on immigration. You misunderstood my words. To expand my previous words – Canada is not shrinking at present time because we have immigration. Without it we would be in deep trouble. To assume that we would always have that level of immigration to save us and replace missing member of our society is naïve. There is distinct possibility that North American society is behind its peak.
Not to mention and significant amount of immigration/population of the country is creating other big issues.
And I am immigrant too. I came 10 years ago. Loss for my country and gain for Canada. At least I think so ?.
@Linda
Wow, your response is example that words can be understood in many ways. You have misunderstood me.
I have to better explain myself this time around. I don’t want to have my children because I want them to take care for me when I am old. I need my children to become doctors, engineers, farmers to preserve/expand our present society and level of life we have now. I am saving profusely to have enough funds that I can pay for my care when I am old. But to hire somebody to care for me there has to be somebody. If one of my children is going to be in profession of elderly care, then maybe I will hire him. But if he is not born then there is nobody to hire. ? That is the point that DINKs don’t understand. You cannot hire somebody from Africa to take care for you for obvious reasons (language, culture, system etc …)
So that’s fine that you have money or insurance for your care but if you didn’t have children or somebody else didn’t have children you have nobody to hire. That is the core of selfishness of DINKs or single child parents
@Carla
Yes, you are correct. Your sister has filled the gap that you have created. Buy her nice present and help her as much as you can?. She will have lower standard of life as you and lower pension too (statistically speaking).
@Geoff
Yes you are correct. I am well aware of child’s cost in Toronto ? and not enough facilities for them.
It’s possible that I will not be able to have third child because of that. But to have 2 children should be norm and ingrain in our society. I am spending time writing this because I see prevailing trend of not having children or have one in advance democracies.
@Kat
You are correct. DINKs pay more taxes and they contribute to our society. I don’t deny that. But they failed to do main contribution to our society – replace themselves.
You are even more correct when we are talking about parents that have children without proper consideration. I’ve seen those cases way too many times. These parents are irresponsible, not selfish. I am alarmed with trend in our society of not having kids or have one. As I said to Carla if you sister has more than 4 kids you are off the hook?.
@Cas
To preserve our present level of culture and society we need to keep population at least leveled. That means 2.1 children per 2 adults. You sister is different case. Read my response to Kat. We are talking about DINKs and single child parents here that made DECISSION not to have another one because of some kind of subjective excuse. Your sister is different case (mental issues).
@Flynnycat
By your logic Canada will shrink to 15 Mil people in one generation. That is scary. Can you imagine what it will do to our society? Houses will fall 70%, rural areas will vacant, services will decline, different branches of science and arts will disappear and so on and on. Ask people in Sweden and Russia.
You have some bad experience from your childhood. Learn from it and make it better for your children. Trust me you are not making it better by deciding that you will have only one child. Usually (not always) single child has many issues from childhood.
————————————————————————–
Uff that is long post. Luckly my wife is back at home and playing with my little one.
I hope that my effort helped somebody here and explained why so many people are pushing you to have children or more than one.
Our moms, grandmoms are pushing us to have more children. Manytimes they don’t understand or can’t explain why they are doing it. But inside they feel that this is important to our society/family.
Without children there is no future. It took me nearly 40 years to realize that.
Be smarter than me, learned it sooner and stay out of debt
.
We are heading for deflation decade.
Our society needs your children. You need your children. More than one.
Or if you have one ask your brother/sister to have three.
I think he/she will be very surprised by your request
but it is the same request that DINKs and single child parent are asking us to do.
Have a nice weekend.
August 20, 2010 at 5:28 pm
I come from afamily of 4 kids and DH comes from a family of 2 kids. Before getting married last year, we “negotiated” how many kids we wanted when we start our family. He was thinking 2, of course, I was thinking 4, of course. We compromised at 3 naturally although it was harder for him to accept that. But he eventually came around after realising how lonely he gets despite living so close to his sibling especially compared to my family where there is always a sibling willing to help out, or meet up, or talk, etc….
What we think will make this situation work is the commitment we have recieved from my family and extended family in helping to raise our family. Very common in my culture, but totally new for my Hubby. So it kind of comes full circle, my large family, will be the village that helps raise my family, no matter how small or big it is.
August 20, 2010 at 5:31 pm
This is quite a discussion! one thing i would add to Gail’s discussion with a child who wants something is to identify their feeling – for ex., it seems like you really want XXX, we won’t be able to get it now, i know this is really hard for you…
in the children’s mental health field, to goal is to work with parents to increase empathy and help kids atttach meaning to feelings instead of just pushing them down.
August 20, 2010 at 5:53 pm
I am the oldest of 3 kids, all girls. There is an age span between myself and them is 6-7 yrs. We never got along as kids and we have no relationship now as adults. I was often resentful of them growing up as they took a great deal of my mom’s time which resulted in my often not being able to join activities or do things because of the kids. My husband finds in amusing that I always call my sisters the kids and never my sisters.
I am a mother of one son and knew one was all I wanted despite people thinking I should have more. My son used to want a sibling but once he became a teen he thanked me for having only him as he realized he would not have some of the advantages he enjoyed had there been another to share with. He had many friends and a kind hearted soul and he always worked to earn money for the things he wanted over and above what I would provide.
So it all boils down to personal choice, not having children to have someone to look after you in your later years because having a passle of children does not insure care in your golden age.
August 20, 2010 at 6:28 pm
“Another argument I was telling myself. I can’t bring my child to this horrible world. Frankly that is misleading view. I believe today’s world is the best it ever been.”
Really. I hardly think the world is the “best it’s ever been.” In terms of what? Food is cheap, you say. You know why? Because of the evil called factory farming. That chicken and beef you eat? There is nothing natural about it, and a tremendous amount of suffering and environmental degradation goes into it. More kids means more people contributing to an evil system of suffering.
More kids also means more people rampantly buying more crap no one needs, which again leads to environmental devastation.
Despite all of our wonderful medical advancements, obesity–from the excessive amounts of “cheap” food people eat just because they can–is killing record numbers of people. This is the first generation ever in which so many children are not going to outlive their parents.
People are on all kinds of unecessary drugs–corporations are out of control, particularly pharmaceuticals and the aforementioned agribusinesses.
People have record amounts of debt, and record amounts of meaningless crap. There is no real sense of community anymore.
So I wouldn’t be too hard on anyone who says they don’t want to bring a kid into this world. It is overrun with selfishness and greed. People in North America will spend $800 on a purse while kids in Africa starve. There is no such thing as social justice. So yeah, I would hesitate to bring a kid into the world. You can only hope they end up sharing your values. I don’t share my parents values, or not all of them….they raised me to eat meat and drink my milk because it was supposed to make me healthy. Well, I am now a VEGAN because I finally broke away from that brainwashing we are all fed. I am also a feminist, which neither of my parents are. Many kids, despite coming from “good” families, get into drugs and other criminal behaviour.
I am sure Paul Bernardo’s mom was ecstatic when Paul was born–look how well that went. Having a kid is a bit of a crapshoot–you really don’t know what you will get. You may end up outnumbering the Muslims, or whatever group you seem to be worried about, but that is not necessarily a good thing.
There is more to think about in this world than just “replacing yourself.” In fact, that is an extremely narrow-minded view.
Ever see the movie Idiocracy? Soooooooo true…..
August 20, 2010 at 6:51 pm
Martin,
I truly hope that your plan to be cared for in your dotterage will work out.
As a nurse I can assure you: many, many elderly people are being ignored or mistreated by their off spring.
One should have children because they love them, not as an insurance package.
Good grief!!
August 20, 2010 at 8:19 pm
Thanks Gail, for the article.
We do the same – there have been many, many times where my son (now 2) has started losing it in the library – screaming, tantrum, starting to throw books. So I would just drop my bag of books at the front desk, walk out of the library, and sit down and do a time out right then and there. And it always worked – by the time I’ve counted to 60, he’s quiet and content. And we can walk right back into the library and spend some more time, and he’s fine. In grocery stores we just find a quiet spot or uncrowded aisle and just do the time out beside the cart. Same in the mall – just find a spot, and time out. And then we’re all ok.
Or, if he really wants something, and it’s not breakable, I’ll let him pick it up. And then he can put it back. And that works very well. So if we’re at the drugstore, and there are giant toys and he really wants one, I’ll say, “Ok! You can have the toy,” and he’ll pick it up, give it a hug, and a kiss. Then I’ll say, “Ok! Time for the toy to go back now,” and he’ll put it right back and walk over to something else.
And we’re good
August 20, 2010 at 9:04 pm
@Diana
you didn’t read my former response, did you. I don’t have such plan
.
I don’t want to have kids to take care specifically for me.
That was taken out of context from my first post.
I want them to continue our society, to take my place in our society and help it to move forward and survive.
The problem is that if we decide to not have kids then we (our society) have no future.
Plz read my former comment
@Flynnycat
“There is more to think about in this world than just “replacing yourself.” In fact, that is an extremely narrow-minded view.”
Call me narrow minded but if you don’t replace yourself then you have no future.
Your values, your discoveries means nothing. They will vanish with you.
Replacing yourself is your first real duty in life, after that you can go on your merry way and help our society to be better, healthier etc ….
Did you ever wonder why do we feel that push to have kids ?
Nature provided for that push for real/serious reason but somehow DINKs and single child parents don’t get it.
Good night.
August 20, 2010 at 9:46 pm
@ Martin
The world we evolved in and the world we live in now are very different. Nature designed us to have lots of children, because most would be killed off due to disease, predators, etc. High procreation rates were required for natural selection. With the advent of advanced medicines, better food production and other technologies, fewer people are dying, and this has resulted in overpopulation. The earth can’t sustain this many people indefinitely, there simply aren’t even resources to support this population over the long term. Yes, as the population starts to decrease, we will see a decrease in our standard of living. In fact, we are seeing this now, as the baby boomer generation gets older and starts to retire, the ratio of workers to the whole population is shrinking. But this is inevitable, even desirable. The standard of living we have become accustomed to and the number of people living this overindulgent lifestyle simply cannot be sustained by our planet. Now, if the birth rate drops for several generations, and humanity is in danger of becoming extinct, that’s another matter. But we’re not there yet; not even close.
Science aside, I think it is ridiculous to decide whether or not to have kids based on this kind of argument.
August 20, 2010 at 10:57 pm
Very interesting posts from everyone, except Martin.
Replacing myself is my first real duty in life ??
Wow !
I can’t comment politely on that one.
August 21, 2010 at 1:18 am
I echo what Eunice said. The ‘push’ to have children is a leftover remnant of a time when the mortality rate was higher–kind of like storing fat on our bodies. Not necessary anymore, but our bodies were designed to live through cycles of ‘feast or famine’.
I do find your viewpoint interesting–it’s not one I’ve heard of before. While I respect your right to your beliefs, please don’t look down your nose at me (DINK) because I don’t comply with your viewpoint.
If I have my 2.1 kids, and they both end up in jail, being supported by the rest of society and diverting resources that would otherwise be used to further our society, how can that be a good thing? Also, what if both my children have a physical or mental problem, and end up not ‘replacing’ my role in society in any way? Am I obligated to produce more until I have acceptable people to continue our society?
I know this is an extreme scenario–but a possible one, nonetheless.
I will never have a child, let alone 2.1, just because someone else has decided that I should. I don’t want them, can’t afford them, would spend the next 18-20 years resenting them, and likely have them taken away from me at some point for being an unfit mother. Yes, I know this about myself.
As for our society, I think as long as our immigration continues, Canadian society will be ’safe’. I also wonder if you have included the birthrates of the native population on all the reserves located throughout Canada–the original ‘true’ Canadians.
August 21, 2010 at 3:19 am
Martin, you have very strong views, but I wonder where they are coming from. As many have posted, our world is so overpopulated right now that we are a huge sick ecosystem. My youngest son has, on many occasions, stated that the world ‘used’ to have a system to deal with overpopulation – epidemics! But, in our wisdom, we are spending billions to cure these diseases – aids, cancer, and so on. As devastating as a forest fire is, the forest restores itself, and species that could not grow in the previous environment will find a way to flourish. That being said, publicly ‘advising’ someone that they NEED more than one child is just as rude as telling a stranger that they are fat/ugly/fashion-retarded/drug addicted – whatever!!! The simple fact that we, as a society, feel we have the right to even comment on other people’s personal choices, to their faces is absurd. Next thing you know, we will be living in a society like the Christian Bale movie where showing any emotion – publicly or otherwise, is punishable by death!!!! But to get back to the bones of the post – my mother had her first 3 children in less than 3 years – quite common in the 50’s. By the time I was 7, she had slowed down a bit – there are 5 of us now. But in true Catholic style, she did not believe in birth control, and was just getting out of the hospital after suffering her 3rd miscarriage, right before my younger sister got married! On an opposite note, look at the negative comments made about the Duggars and their brood of 19 kids and Counting. Or Octomom, or Jon and Kate. These families could be accused of procreating solely to provide an income, quite similar to many of our Welfare moms here in Canada. If one is not enough, how many is?? Those of you who take the time to plan your life to the point of consciously deciding, ahead of time, how many children you can nurture properly have my vote for Most Sensible Human Beings. When I had my 3 sons, there was no thought involved. If I got pregnant, we dealt with it. The first two are 10 years apart, and there are 14 years between the oldest and youngest. Son #1 left home when Son #3 started kindergarten. They are not close at all, more like uncle and nephew. If there had been any thought involved, I would have tried harder to have them closer together. My oldest son is almost 34, has been with Pam for over 10 years (engaged for 6!), has a house, two cats and a dog. This post brings home how many people accusingly ask me 1) when are they getting ‘married’? and 2) when are they EVER going to have kids? #1, it is not my choice or business, and in no way reflects on my parenting skills, and #2, it is no one else’s business regarding the marriage, because in the eyes of the law, they are married enough. On a lighter note, to touch on how I solved any potential ‘gimme, gimme’ tantrums in the stores: when my two youngest were just old enough to be embarrassed in public, I literally touched and asked for every piece of lingerie I could get my hands on in Zellers, which had them pulling me quite quickly out of the store. Lesson learned. Let’s all look after our own families, however small/large they are, live within our means, treat each other with dignity and respect, leave as small an environmental footprint as possible, and try to leave our planet in the best shape possible for whatever size population will be out there once we pass on. That is about all we can hope for. Now go hug your child/children/cat/dog/significant other, and have a great weekend.
August 21, 2010 at 8:18 am
@ Martin…I have 2 boys…one is very handicapped and will need to be supported all his life…the other will be able to support himself…does this mean I need to have an “extra” child to “make up” for the first one????…In this “great” country I am sick with worry as my eldest gets older and so do we about who will look after him…our younger son assures us he will but he’s only 15 and we all know life can take him in a completly different direction and that just may not happen…I wouldn’t put my dog in most of the group homes we have so my beloved son sure isn’t going there…I had always wanted kids…lots of kids…and I LOVE AND ADORE the 2 boys I have but if I had a crystal ball before I had them I never would have had them…plain and simple…my advice now to folks is to be well planned before you have children…ensure you have a good financial plan in place in case one of you needs to stay home full time with your child and don’t rush into having number 2 and 3 etc until you are sure all is well with number 1…I believe folks should have kids if they truly WANT them, but how many???…that is a truly private and personal decision…
August 21, 2010 at 9:17 am
@Martin: What happens if you have another boy? Does that mean your wife hasn’t replaced herself and completed her committment to society? I don’t know…I just don’t understand why people need to push their ideas on what’s “right and proper” on others. My DINK friends are perfectly happy, as they should be. Why on earth would I tell them they’d be happier with kids in the picture? Maybe it’d be an awful experience. Maybe they’d divorce, maybe the kids wouldn’t become the doctors and whatever else you speak of and instead would be 40 year olds living in the basement because they’re still trying to find themselves.
Seriously flaberghasted with your ‘argument’ against DINKS or those with only 1 child. You worry about you and yours, cast stones at the others if you need, but personally I choose to focus on me and mine thanks, and everyone’s relatively happy so far.
August 21, 2010 at 2:52 pm
wow gail, what a blog! i have enjoyed every single response and i applaud you martin, not because i agree with you but because you have the backbone to have an opinion and defend it. as does everyone else who posted.
i am from a family of 8 children but i have only 1. after 6 miscarriages i finally figured that the heartache and medical difficulties imposed by that loss were too high to pursue my dream of having a similarly large family. i have not lost out though, as my daughter is my best friend, my treasure and my #1 blessing.
i am currently in a relationship where my boyfriend’s son is autistic. not having dealt with this previously i am now trying to balance the needs of my 28-year old very successful daughter with those of a 12 year old autistic child. huge change! while my daughter’s needs tend to be surrounding the i want to come home for Christmas type, the 12 year old son is completely different. i too am looking at long term care for him, and i can barely communicate. we are learning to like one another, and i am learning that parenting a special needs child is not so unlike that of a “normal” child; he needs love, compassion, trust, a bit of discipline, food, a warm bed, books to be read to him, etc. a puppy is fun, for brief periods. he loves playing cards. while my daughter has moved on to a professional life, he won’t. so i will have to make a huge decision soon; commit to him for the rest of my life or walk away knowing i can’t. is that selfish? i don’t know and anyone who has an opinion is welcome to comment. i am not certain what the “right answer” is for me. financially i can afford it. timewise i can afford it. emotionally, i am uncertain…
thank you again gail for another wonderful, thought-provoking post. and i sincerely thank all who posted with their thoughts…you help me reflect on my own & provide me new perspectives for fodder.
as stated by many already, be blessed with your children. be blessed if you choose not to have children. to each his/her own decision, and for whatever reason.
August 21, 2010 at 3:07 pm
Martin, your views are too narrow and closely held to discuss in detail and just say we disagree. I will say that Beethoven and Dr. Seuss never had children but I don’t think their work died with them, but you disagree.
Also I hope your kids have kids, lest you consider them failures in life. Careful what you wish for though, Martin….
August 21, 2010 at 6:25 pm
Just home from a week at the beach. Scanned the messages quickly.
Makes me smile Gail to know you are picking out the pics.
Indy, you have done a great job fixing the code. Thanks!
As for the debate about children, all I can add is: thank goodness we are all different or this would be a pretty boring world. To each his own. No right or wrong. Through the years I have learned that people have their own reasons about the number of children they do or do not have. Many times, it is out of their control and so I really do TRY to keep my counsel.
August 21, 2010 at 9:32 pm
Interesting debate…more so on ideals than money. I will say we had always wanted at least 2 but medical issues, very hard pregnancy and very scary birth situation and medical needs after left us very wary of trying again. We are at the point where we are very happy with/blessed to have one. While it’s not out of the question we would never actively try for a second. Through the entire journey we have been hounded by people nagging us to have kids (not wanting to share the emotional and painful reasons we just smiled and took it rather than engage in discussions/rebuttal) and now, as our child is older, we’ve been getting the bums rush to new parenthood again by people, strangers and relatives and everything in between. We are much more comfortable now with being completely up front and half the time people have the decency to be embarrased about having brought it up. How many children you have is so very personal and usually the people being nagged are hurt by it…you never now how many people have infertility issues and many never get resolved…until you’ve been in that waiting room or support group setting.
Word from the wise……or almost wise….
August 21, 2010 at 10:49 pm
my husband and i are both only children. we have wonderful memories of our chilhood and would not change them for the world, however as you age and start your own families you realize you will never have aunts or uncles for your children, never have help caring for aging widowed moms (ON BOTH SIDES) never have cousins for your kids to play with, never have siblings to help you with dads passing, never know the love of being aunti or uncle. basically being an only child is short term gain for the parent and long term pain for the child…………..everyone has a choice and if for some reason you can only have one, thats fine but if choice is an option think of the long term benefits !
August 22, 2010 at 11:05 am
Well Martin, you certainly know how to prompt debate!
My partner and I are DINKs and I wouldn’t have it any other way. We would make horrid parents and it would be the height of stupidity for us to have children. And that is no one’s business but our own. Both of us come from miserable, dysfunctional families and I resent having to be a caregiver to a parent who excels at the art of guilt tripping and sibling rivalry. If that is being selfish, well then I guess I am.
The world cannot sustain 50 billion people – if it could there wouldn’t be one billion people living in abject poverty today. I think Canada, a country built by immigration, has evolved into a beautiful, respectful, diverse and rich nation and will continue to do. It doesn’t need me to replenish myself.
August 22, 2010 at 2:22 pm
Wow! I have enjoyed reading everyones comments and points of view.
Martin, As another posted commented, I appluad your honest and having the backbone to discuss your opinion further.
This weekend we took our son and his friend to our camp for the night. Both boys are just turning 5. They get along great and had a lot of fun together. However, there were several points during our time that I notice how tense I got and irritable. I adore these children, but I know that one child is a good choice for us. I am a better parent for having 1.
The other reason another hasn’t happened is that since having #1, my DH was diagnosed with an eye disease which means he willlose his vision. He has had to give up working in his trade after 20 years and is in school retraining at 41. Adding another child, who could be born with this eye disease, would be very stressful on us both. We are blessed with a good marriage and a healthy child. I can have close relationships with other children and help my friends with their children.
Like KG, I have 2 brothers. They are 7 & 10 years younger. When my parents divorced, I became the other parent in the household. I really questioned if I wanted children at all because I felt that I had already raised 2 kids. I look at them more as my sons than my brothers.
August 23, 2010 at 11:19 am
Wow, lots of responses. Sensitive subject.
Lots of stories, emotions, anger and guilt.
We all have to answer that question of children for ourselves.
To rephrase – my problem with DINKS and single child parents?
If this will become prevailing trend in our society
(and it does in advance democracies, look at fertility numbers)
then our society will diminish. It will hit everybody.
To have life that you have now, you have to thank significantly bigger amount of people on Earth.
Only with so many people we were allowed to specialized and do what we love to do.
If our numbers will diminish we will have to go back to cover our basic needs.
Is DINKS and single parent trend big enough for my worry ? I think so, some of you don’t.
Anyway thank you for your responses, some nice, some harsh.
Plz try to understand that without children there is no future. If we all decide to have no child or one child then we are in huge trouble and Canada will shrink and many professions will disappear.
This is my last post in this threat.
Have a nice day.
August 23, 2010 at 12:28 pm
honestly, i think the solution is not for us to have more children but for people in other countries to have fewer. the key to that is the education of women. it would be nice to see everyone having access to clean water, good food and quality medical care, but you can’t have that with 50 billion people.
August 23, 2010 at 1:32 pm
Nice! I also adopted a new philosophy in the last two years. If I’m waiting in line at a store or restaurant and things aren’t going well behind the counter, I just leave. There’s no use getting frustrated about these things. Just leave your merchandise and walk out. If the waiter is taking 20 minutes to get to your table, just go. My life has been a lot less stressful ever since.
August 23, 2010 at 5:03 pm
I am terrified of being “mean” to my kids, but at the same time, I am firm with the boundaries. That isn’t being mean, that is showing the children that “no” is not the end of the world and my word can be trusted as reliable and consistant.
Okay, I do give in to the ocassional treat. NOT because they whined and NEVER if I’ve already said no. Only when I think we’ve all earned it (and it’s in the budget). That way it stays a treat and it’s spontaneous! I think the kids are finally figuring out that if they ASK for it early on, it greatly reduces their chances of getting it, and if they KEEP asking, they with certainly NOT get it! LOL
I sometimes say “we’ll see how it goes” to keep my options open. It’s code for “if we all get along and what needs to get done gets done first, then you will have a chance”.
As far as the heated procreation debate above… I will not assume anyone NEEDS to procreate. My opinion is that having children is a HUGE responsibility financially, physically, emotionally and socially — it should not be taken lightly! It is heartbreaking, terrifying, draining work 24/7 for the rest of your life even if you beat the odds and your child turns out perfect and grows up perfect too. Anyone that doesn’t take it seriously or has kids just because they “should” is not doing the planet any favours.
Half of my friends are childless by choice (one by medical issues). They are fine, they will be fine and the other friends are making up the difference! Their taxes help my kids go to school and help subsidize all the snotty-nosed doctor visits — thank you DINKS! for giving the next generation a better life!
August 25, 2010 at 1:08 am
wow… i have been reading back awhile and martin has been taking a beating! since when has wanting to have children become so offensive. what will canada look like years from now…the few that have kids need a team of nannies and family to raise the kid or two. lets see how smooth things are 20 years fron know when you will need help and care and no one can fill the positions… either way make your bed and lie in it. hope the buck you saved was worth it
August 26, 2010 at 10:54 am
Just a quick comment vis a vis MIL asking when grandchildren would arrive: after I responded a few times “when you stop asking about it” then questions magically stopped!
However, I needed to have a comeback to hold onto my sanity since my DH and I were undergoing ALL KINDS of fertility treatments at the time, and the lack of pregnancy was not due to lack of effort. Looking back, I realize she never asked my DH about that, only me. Hmmm… .