We Are an Ignorant Bunch
Posted by Gail | Filed under In the News
There’s been a lot of blah blah blah of late on the importance of teaching our kids more about money and how it works. Sadly, the very people who are charged with teaching children these life lessons – parents and teachers alike – are just as ignorant when it comes to the rules of money and the basics of personal finance, never mind the more complicated stuff like investing and risk mitigation.
So who’all is going to decide what our kids should learn and what’all will we be teaching them? No doubt if the investment gurus get their hands on the curriculum it’ll all be about earnings ratios and dividend reinvestment programs. Kids will hear how important it is to save and how impossible it is to have a life and money too. And they’ll be asked to do some case study analysis to which they cannot in any way relate on a personal level. That, after all, is the way of most financial instruction.
Spurts aside, it is truly a case of the blind leading the blind, particularly when it comes to the topic of debt management. A study conducted by the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada (2006) shows us to be less than the savvy consumers we believe ourselves to be. According to that study:
- only 24% of us know our credit rating,
- 31% of us don’t know the annual interest rate charged on the card we use most often
- 50% of us don’t know the factors that contribute to our credit rating, and
- since only 54% believe that cards issued by retailers have higher interest rates than those issued by financial institutions that means the other 46% of us are dopes (although this is changing as credit card companies get greedier and greedier).
Wow! Imagine not knowing your credit rating or what contributes to it in this day and age. That’s kinda like not knowing that smoking will kill you or that buying lottery tickets is entertainment, not a financial plan. Or wondering into a pay advance store for some extra pocket money.
The report says, “a sizeable segment of consumers have poor or no knowledge of interest rates and interest calculations, as well as their responsibilities related to credit cards.” This probably explains the dire straits in which many people now find themselves in these much tougher economic times.
When so much has been written about credit scores and how to make them shine, what could possibly explain the 4 million adult Canadians who have charged their cards to the limit?
And then there are the 49% of us who answered “true” to the statement:
You won’t pay interest on a cash advance as long as you pay your credit card balance in full by the due date indicated on your statement.
Again, wow! That’s so wrong!
Despite our ignorance, 87% of us feel well informed when making financial decisions and 83% of us say we learn everything we can about financial products before buying them. Talk about delusional. And if we think we know, of course, we don’t do anything much to correct our ignorance… we just keep on being ignorant and passing our ignorance onto our kids.
Poor sods. Caught between parents and teachers who just don’t know (and don’t know that they don’t know) and pointy-headed, patronizing Spurts, what hope is there?
December 14, 2009 at 8:07 am
I do think we need a very basic money education program in schools. Something that starts off simple teaching what amount should be saved out of earnings and what amount should be spent. The class gcould get more indepth into credit cards and consumer money awareness. I think you, Gail, should really try to get involved in pioneering a good program for teaching our young people. You know lots of stuff and you can head off the investment gurus and credit card companies that want to keep our young people stupid so they get hooked to their jobs and to debt and work as good worker bees should.
regards,
Jason
December 14, 2009 at 9:18 am
Good comment about the worker bees Jason. My money lessons from my mother were pretty much along that line. She always told me to make sure I had my own money so I’d never be stuck in a bad situation. That came in super handy a few years ago when I took a very good paying job in another province, far far away, and it turned out to be the most inhumane set up I’d ever seen. My bosses were beyond manipulative and abusive. One day when I came to my senses after yet another miserable encounter that left me crying, I told them where to go, bought a plane ticket, packed and shipped all my stuff that day and was gone in less than 24 hours.
I’ve never tried to teach children about money before so I can only do my best with my own but I figure I’ll start them early on a small allowance and bank account and explain saving and interest to them. There is a little corner store near by so I’m sure they’ll learn the concept of “money all-gone” over chocolate bars quite quickly. I’ll also include them in the bi-weekly budget discussion, just so they can hear the words and get into that habit.
December 14, 2009 at 9:25 am
Sure, we need better financial education . . . and physical education, and history, and general math skills, and reading, and comprehension, and logical thinking, and simple problem solving . . .
They do in fact how to calculate interest, how to balance a cheque book, and other simple concepts. No one pays attention, just like in every other class.
December 14, 2009 at 10:01 am
This is one of the few Gail posts that makes me twitch, but that is undoubtedly because I am a teacher and there is that instictive desire to protect one’s own profession lol
I don’t deny that teachers are not unlike the multitudes of other professions out there with varying degrees of money knowledge.
I don’t deny that I am a ‘work in progress’ in the land of learning about money and I’m sure others are.
There are very few (any?) curriculums out there with a focus on money in the real world. There are small snippets of interest and chequebok balancing, as previously mentioned, but that is about it.
What we are required to teach (the curriculum) comes down from the provincial governments. They have inundated us with new curriculums at all levels and in all subjects, but I, for one, would be excited about a curriculum change that brought in money education.
Even in the new math programs coming out, money is no longer introduced in the lower grades. Remember those little worksheets with different coins, etc? Gone, in many programs.
For changes to be made at the k-12 level please encourage your provincial government to include it. They are the ones with the power
December 14, 2009 at 10:03 am
Oh lordy, I can spell. Honest!! I will blame the typos above in my post on the almost -50C with wind chill weather out there and my frozen fingers, from trying to get my vehicle started. My apologies LOL
December 14, 2009 at 10:24 am
I’m one of the 31% who doesn’t know the interest rates on her credit cards…but that’s because I don’t pay interest.
As for teaching kids about finance, there are a few Junior Achievement programs that cover this topic. I volunteer to teach two of them: the Economics of Success and Dollars with Sense. The kids leave with a new sense of appreciation for their parents…and a vow to never move out on their own. And since I disagree with JA’s stance on credit cards, I tweak it and tell the kids to NEVER carry a balance.
December 14, 2009 at 10:28 am
I am with you Jolie. As an educator, we can control how we teach (thankfully) but the content is not our choice. And it is not reasonable to expect that we could successfully teach a subject such as personal finance when it has never been included in our training or upbringing. There are so many subjects teachers are expected to cover these days outside of their expertise just because they’re a “teacher”. Our province especially (BC) has done an extremely poor job of supporting our students’ needs that I think we are a long way to teaching fincances. And it certainly would not help the capitalist structure of keeping those rich folk rich if we started teaching everyone to be financially successful. Our society relies on the poor staying poor.
I think the tone to this post, that it is crazy that people don’t know certain things about fincances is extremely condescending at best. Ignorance, perhaps, but certainly not the equivalent of not knowing that smoking is bad for you or that lottery tickets are entertainment. Have you ever seen a “end-debt” campaign in schools? Or graphic representations of what living in major debt looks like? We as a society are NOT encouraged to live debt free. We have been encouraged to live smoke free for some time and have had numerous messages blarring at us for a couple of decades at least, of the harm of smoking. We have had no such education surrounding finances. To propose that they are of equal ignorance just demonstrates the extreme privilege you hold Gail. I’m a little disappointed today.
December 14, 2009 at 10:41 am
What Jolie said. I am also a teacher, and I think there are two current courses in the Ontario curriculum that deal with financial math, but almost nobody takes them, and not all schools offer them, because they are labelled “workplace math.” (If you’re in Ontario, they are MEL 3E and MEL 4E, “Mathematics for Everyday Life”.) I am also a bit twitchy when it comes to talking about teachers being the blind leading the blind in financial matters, but there is some truth to it: I taught the grade 11 course a few years ago and I learned a LOT of things I didn’t know about government deductions and how credit cards deal with interest. It was very eye-opening, and I remember another teacher saying she’d like to take the course too!
I try to sneak in financial lessons when I can, especially for the grade twelve students who are about to be inundated with easy credit card offers — I love the look on their faces when I tell them that if they have a balance of $100 and they pay $99.99, they will be charged interest on the whole $100! I figure if I get through to at least one of them, that’s one more person who might not fall into a financial mess later.
The Ontario government is in the process of introducing financial literacy in the 4-12 curriculum, and while I applaud the concept, I’m a little wary because we don’t yet know what the government will deem to be the core “financial literacy concepts and skills.”
December 14, 2009 at 10:46 am
Jennifer – I do agree that as a ‘teacher’ you are expected to teach a variety of subjects (ie sex ed) that should also be taught at home. It is, however, a fallacy in your argument that ‘living debt free’ is a relatively new concept. It’s as old as the hills:
“The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower becomes the lender’s slave” (Proverbs 22:7)
“The wicked borrows and does not pay back, but the righteous is gracious and gives” (Psalm 37:21)
“The wise man saves for the future, but the foolish man spends whatever he gets” (Proverbs 21:20, LB)
“Neither a borrower nor a lender be.” Macbeth.
That’s just a sampling, I’m sure with some effort I can find similar messages from any background, all of which are far older than anyone here.
Ultimately, I think parents are responsible for teaching their children the really important lessons. I mean no disrespect to teachers (my father was a teacher) but it seems odd to me to have lessons like retirement planning taught by a person who really doesn’t have to worry about retirement due to the strength of their pension plan.
And for the record: I do think it’s CRAZY to not know what affects a credit score, or what affects your financial security. Absolutely, 100%, nutso.
Lastly, I think what will end up teaching children ultimately are blogs like this one, canadiancapitalist, and the like. And each other.
December 14, 2009 at 10:52 am
I don’t think Gail is blaming the teachers- I think it is simply that children aren’t taught by parents or society in general or the education system how to budget or how to simply live within their means. I am a teacher and I agree that teachers are expected to cover a multitude of areas and we often are unable to reach all of the students despite our best efforts. But I see grade 7 students with iphones, elementary students with psps, ipods etc… Girls wearing lululemon hoodies ( $90) that they will outgrow. VERY few of these kids have needed to earn even part of these high end items. Kids don’t see the struggle with bills- they see the I want it, I’ll buy it mentality. On tv and at home. The STUFF the has invaded our lives in incredible. Kids expectations are overly inflated- how could they not be? I have two kids- almost 6 and 4. I have made a few vows. 1. no tv or computers EVER in their bedrooms and only one tv in the house. 2. big ticket items will need to be saved for . We have already done this once-we made a saving jar for the kids to earn a kite. and it worked ( thank goodness) but my kids still have FAR more than I ever did. I feel the pressure ( with my daughter in kindergarden for pete’s sake!) to dress her well and have her “fit in” I don’t think the solution is as simple as budgeting needing to be taught in schools. I think it is far more of a societal problem and there really is no quick fix except one family and one kid at a time. Remember that show “Street cents” on CBC – I want it back!- that was a great show for kids about finances.
December 14, 2009 at 11:04 am
Gail makes some great points in this article, but I have to sort of disagree (gasp) on at least one thing. While the financial knowledge delineated in the bullet points is important, I think that the more basic concepts like avoiding debt, spending less than you earn, and knowing what you spend are more important. I have a pretty good handle on my finances, but I have only a rough idea of what the interest rate on my credit card is because I never pay interest.
Here here on keeping the education of our kids out of the hands of the mutual fund industry!
December 14, 2009 at 11:06 am
I think I had fairly good teachers as parents. They taught me some very basic tips about savings and retirement planning and investing. What they did not teach me about was debt because in their minds “nobody should ever have debt beyond a mortgage” so to them it was pointless to talk about something that nobody should have. It wasn’t until university that I understood how credit card interest worked and I only learned that because of a finance class I took! I hope that I understand the issues better so when I have kids maybe, just maybe, I can do a better job.
December 14, 2009 at 11:12 am
@ Jenn B — no computers in your kid’s room, EVER? Really?
I don’t see how that’s going to work, and I’m a parent of a 2 year old. The tv, yes totally but a computer is a useful tool.
December 14, 2009 at 11:21 am
Jenn B, I loved Street Cents…that was an amazing show.
We’re beginning to teach the kids about saving. They each get an allowance and have to put half of it in their piggy banks, which they can’t open. We also teach them that they must save up the money that they can spend, for things that they want to buy. When they are older, we will hopefully try and teach them about interest.
I agree with the others, it’s hard to teach anything that is outside of the actual curriculum. I will write to my MPP and the Minister of Education and let them know that their constituents would love to see more ‘real world’ mathematics courses and life courses in highschool.
December 14, 2009 at 11:27 am
I’ll never forget (and neither will my daughter) the day that her then grade 4 teacher taught a class on living within your means. It was a very simple lesson. He put up $2000.00 on the board and asked what the class thought of making that amount of money per month. They all said how much money that was and that they would be rich if they could make $2000.00 a month. He then proceeded to list out all the expenses that a family in general will pay in a month. Rent/mortgage, groceries, car payment, gas etc.. Needless to say the amount dwindled very quickly. My daughter came home with eyes like saucers. She said ” and do you know how much was left mom at the end of the month mom? $50.00!!” She was so suprised to learn this and it really opened her eyes. What a wonderful lesson at that age. I am so grateful to that teacher for that one lesson. She still talks about it to this day many years later and has become very good at saving and living within her allowance means. Of course, I’ve also made her watch every episode of TDDUP which helped drive home the message too lol. Thanks Gail!
December 14, 2009 at 11:35 am
I’ve seen the consultations the Ontario government has done on the financial literacy curriculum for grades 4-12 and I’m appalled. It’s run by, financed by, and led by the financial and investment industry. So hold onto your hats parents. The very industries that led us to the abyss, who give your kids credit cards as soon as they get to university and college, who have the byzantine student loan system – they’re the ones designing the curriculum to get at the kids by age 10 to ensure themselves a future market of consumers who are programmed that debt is good, and mutual fund MERs that are the highest in the world and eat into your retirement savings without you even seeing is terrific.
There was once a politician who said “never be beholden to the banks” – which meant if you borrow, be prepared – the banks own you and you don’t have power. Still wise words to live by.
December 14, 2009 at 11:35 am
My kids get an allowance not tied to chores, but are still expected to do their chores every week (or daily in terms of homework, tidy up, help with dinner prep, etc). With this allowance they’re able to save or buy as they want, but it also goes for the $2 popcorn or $10 gift purchases at school. They also have bank accounts that I deposit $10 into each month. As they want things above and beyond (new shoes when we just got soem in Sept? Okay, it’s coming out of your bank account. Ski lessons? Okay, you cough up 1/4 of the cost from your bank account.). My 13 yr old gets the bank concept, but the 10 yr old thinks that we have an unlimited resource, especially when I say there’s no asking for 1 red cent as I’m “broke” now, but I can still afford groceries. She doesn’t get that the grocery money is sacred, planned, untouchable money, but throwing in a pack of gum is quite reasonable if I’m already buying $100’s in groceries.
In any event, I am seriously, painfully broke after a panic Xmas gift shopping weekend…after doing the cc payment math, I realized I added about $500 more than planned (as I do my father’s Xmas shopping too), so now I have to borrow from Peter (TFSA) to pay Paul (Visa) in January. Dangit, just as I get to a comfy money level and think I can plateau, along comes stupid STUPID spending and I knock myself on my butt again. Why do I sabotage myself? And more importantly, how can I teach my kids to not follow in my footsteps!! I’m mad and disappointed in myself yet again. Due diligence for next year I guess. (sigh…yet another year I say that, put a plan in action, and mess it up all over again).
December 14, 2009 at 11:38 am
First reaction: I agree, financial savvy should be a part of the curriculum.
Second reaction: One minute, it already is, to a large extent. A lot of this stuff is covered in math class. Not all, but a lot, at least here in MB.
Third reaction: Shouldn’t parents be teaching their kids this?
Fourth (and last) reaction: Oh, it’s like everything else important (manners, hygiene, anti-bullying, self-esteem, physical and sexual health…) too many parents are leaving this up to teachers now, so we (yes, I’m a teacher) get to fit all of this in to the school day. Sometimes we teach reading, writing, math, and history as well.
December 14, 2009 at 11:46 am
Jenn B – don’t be surprised if your kids save their babysitting/gift money and purchase their own computer for their room. I know I did! It was a used computer, and not that great, but when I had to fight for computer time so I could finish my assignments at school, I decided I needed a computer for me, and that no one else could touch it.
From then on (and that was when I was in grade 7 or 8!), I had my own computer, and my brothers could only use it AFTER I finished with my work and research, and they weren’t allowed any of their computer games on it, especially not my dad’s (only mine!).
December 14, 2009 at 11:54 am
I don’t mind if they save for their own computer- I just have a problem with it being in their room. As a teacher- I see the stuff kids get into on their computers- the questionable sites, the incessant messaging, cyber bullying etc… I simply want to monitor closely what they do on their computers. A friend of mine had 2 computers in her livingroom for just that reason( she has two teenagers). Geoff- you are right- computers are a useful tool- Kids can still have computer time- just not in their rooms.
December 14, 2009 at 12:11 pm
I too, am inherently opposed to computers in kids’ bedrooms. If a child of whatever age NEEDS to use a computer (for school assignments), they can be allotted extra time on the family computer. If there are too many children in one family all needing the computer at the same time on a regular basis, buy another computer and set it up in a communal computer area. I do not think my children will have computers in their bedrooms either, and I do not see a need for more than 2 computers in a household of 6 or fewer people. Everyone needs to learn to share. And having to share computer time means that children learn some time management skills along the way… a win-win for everyone!
December 14, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Teachers can choose who to teach a curriculum. The examples selected can help students learn about interest rate, compounding, etc.
We had to learn about contracts, so we had group work to writting a contract for sharing an appartment (rent, emergency money, chores, availability of common rooms…). Ok, I’ll admit that I forget the guidance given for the details of the contract, but by discussing, we shared our knowledge.
A tax return can be used in a Math class and in a language class (understand the rules, use the math). Budget and percentages and never spending more than 100% by making choices.
The Richest Man in Babylon by G. Clason is a great reading assignment and a cheap book. Parts can be used as grammar assignments …
I agree with Geoff, this is not new stuff.
The BIG problem with learning is that you don’t always know how little you DO know until you are exposed to the next level. I knew a lot about money before this site, but I keep on learning by coming back to this site on a regular basis. You don’t know which resources are useful until you accidentally find them and then extrapolate to what you might need to learn for the future.
December 14, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Jenn B, I guess that your approach shows the difference between our parenting styles, neither of which are wrong just different. As a web marketing / IT guy, I know that my son will view the questionable sites, get the messaging, get the whole deal; I can’t fight it. He just might be exposed to it at school, or at a friend’s house, or at a cyber cafe, or on his laptop through an open air wireless, whatever. My goal is to teach him how to handle these situations, rather than try to shield him from them; in fact ideally we discover them together. I mean when he’s really young, he won’t have a computer in his room but once he’s about 10 he probably will. This is the same as my approach with booze — if he wants a beer at 14 I’m giving him one, , nor am I locking up the liquor cabinet – and trusting him to use his judgement, unless he betrays that trust. I like this appraoch better than him getting hammered for the first time at 19 and then getting into his car on the way home from a party. At least learn to handle your liquor and use good judgement, or know when your judgement is impaired.
Again, everyone has different parenting techniques and I reserve the right to be without a doubt, unquestionably, infintessimally wrong about what I’m doing
December 14, 2009 at 12:55 pm
As a former teacher and now homeschooler, I have a lot of sympathy with various comments here. Yes, we do need to learn about finances in a much more comprehensive way that we were ever taught, and yes, schools are one place where this should be taught as not all kids will get instruction otherwise. (Public education is there partly to function as a great equalizer of opportunity and knowledge–though we all know that the system does not work as well as we’d like). The main problem I see is that school is looked on by many kids (and adults!) as a series of ‘hoops to jump through’, dry academe, and irrelevant to the real world. I still think we should teach financial literacy in school, as I said, but I don’t hold out a lot of hope that a system designed around standardized test scores, finding ‘easy A’s’ for university admission and “Is this gonna be on the test? (i.e., do I need to learn this?)” will be able to teach finances in a way that most students come out applying what they’re learned to their real life.
BTW, teachers, I in no way blame you for this state of education. You have my utmost admiration working in a system that, I feel, stifles your own creativity and gift for teaching at many turns. The fact that so many of you succeed in inspiring students despite this is a testament to you.
December 14, 2009 at 1:30 pm
My 12 y.o. has a computer in his room–but it’s not connected to the internet. I’m assuming that’s really the issue for parents? I like his having his own to do homework and game-playing on rather than tying up the family computer. The computer with internet is in the living room so I can be aware of what he’s doing online. Mind you, I’m lucky (so far) in that he’s not interested in Facebook or any social networking of any kind.
I do limit the computer time allowed for recreational purposes though and tie the amount of useage to the amount of physcial activity he has: 1 hour of exercise = 1 hour of game time. Works for us.
December 14, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Risa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxxiS4m9OSg
(they could have used nicer vocabulary)
Everybody is different in what they like.
December 14, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Marie,
LOL. I love Stephen Fry, and British humour in general. He makes a great point. Thanks for sharing!
December 14, 2009 at 2:32 pm
I loved Street Cents. I would even watch it as an adult! I vaguely recall financial information being taught in school, but it was for the remedial math types. Now really, how much do I use that advanced algebra ? Remedial math might have been much more effective, but I needed the other to get into university. My next financial education came when I got married and we went to our premarital classes. Those were good – but perhaps because I was also ready to listen (and yet, didn’t stop me from spending beyond my means. Hmmm).
I agree with the other poster who said that the kids just don’t care. You could offer it, but it wouldn’t necessarily make a difference. I notice with my kids when they play webkinz (on the family computer in the living room, lol). One kid has tons of money, very selective on what she spends and the other is always broke and having to sell back her things to get more money to go spending again. It’s like a little looking glass into the future.
I find it hard to let my kids spend the money they have saved, because their choices are sometimes … well, junk… in my opinion. But, it is their money, their choice. It is hard not to cave (already) when the older one gets her special something and the younger one looks pleadingly at me to cover the little bit of cash she is missing to buy the same thing. I say no, and older sister offers to give enough money. Sweet and frustrating at the same time – but they are only 8 and 6 so we have some time yet to work on them.
December 14, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Jenn B > I totally agree with you on this one. Even though I don’t have kids yets I have vowed to not let them have a computer in their room. Theres too much access to out there. Experts and Police suggest that you have the computer in the family room so that if your in the kitchen or family room you can see whats on the screen.
December 14, 2009 at 3:36 pm
I have a vague memory of doing interest calculations in junior high and high school math. I don’t think most students clue in to the importance until they are in a position to have to pay interest (usually a few years later in life). Fortunately for me the lessons allowed me to understand and calculate interest as an adult.
I think it’s a nice idea to want schools to teach financial literacy – but when do we expect these students and teachers to fit it in? There are already different math streams for students who have “lesser” math abilities or for students who don’t think math is necessary for a future career. I don’t think it’s right for us to expect a teacher to try and teach financial literacy and then pass students who really haven’t learned anything – all because we have a system that says they need to pass. It’s a waste of resources.
It is parents who need to actively engage their children into learning about finances and interest (even if means reading Finances for Dummies themselves). I think we need to stop expecting the schools and governments to take on every parental role.
I believe that the absolute best thing a parent can do for their child is to ensure that they get a good education – with the proper knowledge needed to choose ANY career in life (not just the ones that need lower levels of math. science etc).
I think a person with a decent education stands a better chance of making a good living. They’re also more likely to teach themselves about money and money management and a lot more likely to be able to bail themselves out of debt should it arise.
I know so many people who are never watch their money when it comes to spending – but they never get into debt. Why? Because they always earn more than they spend.
Just my two cents…
December 14, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Oh, I know it is picky of me, but “Neither a borrower nor a lender be.” is from Hamlet. Polonius is giving his son Laertes an earful before he heads off to university … hmm, sounds familiar!
December 14, 2009 at 3:45 pm
I have been able to read through the emails above and I agree with seemingly opposing views. I agree that I do not want a computer in my sons room (he is 2.5 now, so we have time to decide), but I also agree with Geoff about teaching a kid by using judgement and trust (appropriate to the age of the child).
I have friends who are teachers, and I agree that they are expected to do so much more than teach the reading, writing and arithmetic that someone would expect. However, my concern as a parent with no teaching skills is how to start? At least the teachers have some background to research the areas to cover, the skills to teach it in a clear and coherent manner. I know there are tons of books on teaching kids about money (including Gail’s). But if public education should teach anything, it is how to be a productive member of society, no matter whether you are post-secondary-education-bound or not. Including how to balance a monthly budget.
I agree that this should be taught by an UNBIASED source.
Knowledge is power. How that knowledge is given can make a big difference in someones life.
December 14, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Parents often think that the schools should teach their kids everything. My parents were not ones to talk about bills and income. There was not alot of money, we ate at home and even gardened and canned. We were not spoiled but there also were no money lessons. My mom was a teacher also. She realizes now what a big mistake that it was not to talk about money. I think it is a parents responsibility and as a mom myself, I will take responsibility for my childrens money knowledge. Teachers are not the be all and end all of a childs learning. I even heard on tv about parents paying other people to teach their kids how to ride a bike etc… so they didn’t have to. Ridiculous. Maybe evening classes for kids about money would be more effective than incorporating it into schools. Just a thought.
December 14, 2009 at 4:38 pm
I think the best teachers are our role models which most often are our parents. Unfortunately many children these days have poor financial role models. I agree that there should be night classes on financial management, however I think it should be for adults and free of charge. Once the adults learn maybe their children will too.
December 14, 2009 at 5:50 pm
I’m surprised by how many teachers there are on this site. Gail was generalizing a bit saying we are an ignorant bunch. There are a few teachers and parents that teach their kids about money in depth. Money is a hard concept for kids to get (parents and teachers too)! I taught a grade 1/2 class last week and they were doing those coin sheets that Jolie mentioned and not all of them knew the names or value of the different coins. I think it is very important to get this started early, as it is a difficult concept!
My boyfriend is still amazed that when something comes to $9.82 that I will give the cashier $10.07 in order to receive a quarter back. He has a hard time doing that sort of math in his head, although he is very smart and does well at math. It’s just a difficult concept!
I think there are so many projects that teachers can do that would be fun for the students, but also teaching them about money. Especially in the upper elementary and high school grades once they have a better concept of money. I was in a Grade 8 class a few weeks ago and the students were given a sheet of paper with prices of different items (cottage, pet, different houses, kids, different cars, hobbies, etc) and each had a different price. The kids then had to pick a job (it listed the hours and the position). They then had to pick what they wanted in life based on what they could afford and what they wanted to be, and how much they wanted to work. Some went for the cheap house and the expensive car, others went for expensive everything but then were at a job working long hours, others went for average everything but several children and pets. It was a neat activity to get the kids thinking about the value of money and what was important to them in their future.
December 14, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Since Gail is on the topic:
http://blog.riscario.com/2009/11/three-reasons-why-financial-literacy.html
December 14, 2009 at 6:11 pm
My sister works for a large BC credit Union and for many years has run a succesful school program at local elementary schools teaching kids about banking and finances. A model Credit Union is developed and run by the students and they learn the basics of balancing a personal chequebook and making a business profit/loss, as well as learning teamwork and leadership. The program has been succesful mainly because it is a community based operation, and is so much more relevant than some of the provincial Career and Life Planning Programs the schools offer. The students research cost of living in their neighborhoods; cost of housing, groceries at their local market, gas prices at the corner gas station. If they have questions, her office is just a couple of blocks away and they can always email her. Money smarts can’t be learnt from just one source, parents, children, financial experts, schools, all need to be involved.
December 14, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Michelle, Your message struck me the most, don’t give up just work towards a debt free Christmas and your kids will pick up on it, they are always learning.
December 14, 2009 at 6:21 pm
Michelle:
Take out the money on or before December 31st (even if the payment is due in January), that way you can put it back in your TFSA in 2010. You just need to revamp your 2010 budget for that payment and increase your Christmas pre-planned spending.
December 14, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Here’s a link for all parents. “www.makeitcountonline.ca”, it’s how to teach your kids about money. You can download a pdf. file too.
December 14, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Teachers are expected to do too much in some ways…. and at the same time, their power is not what it used to be. Meanwhile are the reading/writing/math/history and geography being taught?
Around here there is a no-fail policy. Of course there is no spanking, rulers to the hand or other physical punishment and parents are on the warpath if their kids are kept late. SO there are no consequences except a stupid “think sheet” and a stern talking to for bad behaviour and a completely insignifigant mark on the report card if they are academically not meeting expectations. I am befuddled by the whole thing. My 12 year old prints worse than a 6 year old, his spelling is atrocious and his work is largely undone. So what are the teachers actually teaching him if he doesn’t have the reading and writing? And why is he in Grade 7 with Grade 2 spelling skills? Why does the school system make me feel like the bad guy when I am not a teacher, it is not what I was trained for. How does it happen when he was diagnosed LD in Grade 4? I do what I can.. I am teaching him manners, hygene, MONEY, morals and the value of eating well and keeping active…..
that’s my mini rant.
December 14, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Ok, it’s been a long time since I was in school, but the only classes that taught us anything useful about money (and legal contracts etc.) were all electives (ie General Business, Bookkeeping, and Management) and all High school courses.
Money management needs to start being taught when kids are young. It is after all, a very important life skill. Unfortunately many teachers run in the red, especially during the summer, and are in need of a training course in money management themselves. Having once worked in a financial institution I could never understand why they didn’t put money aside for the months they knew they would have no income. Maybe this has changed but I doubt it.
It seems neither parents nor the education system are equipped to teach the children money management skills and so the problem escalates. If we, as a society, were taught/encouraged to live debt free perhaps the people in power would be pressured to balance their budget as well.
I’m a firm believer that if a child wants an item (especially an expensive one) then they need to earn some money to contribute to the purchase of the item. Otherwise they have no true sense of what things cost nor how hard it is to get the money saved for them and they tend to value the item less than if they had to fork over some money for it.
(I too don’t know what the rate of interest is on my two credit cards and that is because I always pay them off on time in full so it’s irrelevant to me. I do however, know what my LOC interest rate is.)
December 14, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Not failing kids is a political choice our government has made, because it is cheaper and makes them feel more successful… it doesn’t help kids IMHO. If kids failed, and we let them fail, the government would be required to help these children in a more significant way than they’re currently willing to. Unfortunately I believe many teachers have bought into the idea that failing a child will harm their self-esteem so dramatically that they will never succeed. Perhaps it would also mean that the governement would actually need to do something. But then again, as a society we don’t actually want everyone to “succeed” and do well financially in life. We need people to be at the bottom and the top in order to support capitalism.
Our school system is set up within a capitalist structure. Very few people will ever change their social status in life, and the school system supports this in many ways. Those who rise above their disadvantages are few and far between, but we would prefer to pretend that personal choice plays a bigger role in life than where and to whom we were born. Those who have done well for themselves would also like to believe that hard work played a bigger role than their birth position in life. This is ignorant in itself. I for one know that my advantages in life have pushed me to where I currently am. Those of privilege often don’t realize how much they hold, and those without often don’t realize how much they’re lacking. And the wheels keep turning…
December 15, 2009 at 2:23 am
[...] basics of their own financial situation. She sighted one important piece of information which is “How much does your credit card charge as an Interest Rate?”, which is a very important thing to [...]
December 15, 2009 at 9:54 am
The activity Girl Makes Cents is taking about is called The Real Game. It’s a fantastic program for Career Guidance that I use. There is one for Grade 5/6, one for Grade 7/8 and one for Grade 9. For any educators out there who are curious, check it out. My kids LOVE it.
December 15, 2009 at 10:03 am
Thanks Goal “0″ Debt and Marie…I’ll take the money out this week and pay it on the cc, then double up the TFSA deposits in Jan thru to when I get back to where I started. I just get on a roll and wham!, mess myself up with panic thinking and hoarding! This was the latest I’ve ever shopped for Xmas, so that’s where the panic came in on the weekend. Now I regret it, but I can’t take it all back because it was gifts that needed to be purchased as I had nothing for either of my parents and hadn’t bought the grandkids and neice/nephew gifts from my Dad yet (although his money was already put on the cc in advance, I also spent way more in groceries because in-laws are coming for 10 days, so now I’m flat broke and disappointed in my lack of resolve).
Ah well, time to pick myself up and get the plan on paper again. My kids want to know what to get me for my birthday this week, so maybe I’ll say a really nice (but inexpensive) journal so I can start recording all my expenses and my highs and lows as they come!
December 15, 2009 at 11:22 am
@ Pol – your attitude is shocking. I can understand having one bad teacher (I had a few) but your child is clearly in need of help and your response is to blame ‘teachers’ in general? Your child will have had at least 12 different teachers I’d say by now, were they all bad? Let me guess, his bosses will be bad, his friends will be bad, his high school teachers will be bad….
Take some ownership. You write that your kid’s work is ‘largely undone.’ WTH? Sit his butt down and tell him he can’t leave the dining room table till its done, like my own mom did with me. If he prints his work poorly, make him redo it. Make him spell out every word that’s longer than 6 letters that he says to you. If you’re that upset, turn it into something constructive.
You (like me) are a parent. Our primary role is a teacher. I always somewhat regretted not becoming a teacher, and so am overjoyed to be a dad — what a great way to teach someone and know that it matters.
I know this is coming across as harsh, but I think teachers work really hard but ultimately you can only teach when the student wants to learn and quite frankly, your child does not want to learn (you may disagree, but your own words show a child who clearly has no interest in learning). For instance, I know that because his spelling is poor he doesn’t like to read. I have never met a well-read person who didn’t have excellent spelling. Make him do extra book reports, and most of all teach him that knowledge is its own reward. (Off topic, but my son will never get paid for an “A” because it’s his job to do well in school).
And lastly, kids learn from the habits of their parents. I remember reading the newspaper with my dad every day, he’d finish one section and give it to me. And 20 years later, I’m still informed on current events.
December 15, 2009 at 11:51 am
Geoff, you’re a bit harsh. Pol’s son has a learning disability. He need’s a hook into something that will get him motivated. But on the other hand, Pol you’re his mom and you should be talking and making noise to the school in getting him help! Believe me, I’m teaching adults and have come across more than one who graduated from high school and can’t read simple directions.
December 15, 2009 at 11:56 am
This quote is attributed to more than one person, but it is a good one:
“It’s what you learn after you know it all that counts.”
John Wooden and / or Harry S. Truman.
December 15, 2009 at 11:57 am
Geoff;
I get why you have commented the way you have and I agree in part; but I have to defend *pol. I am in a situation that is exactly between you and *pol. My children are in grade 2. I am fightly like h e double hockey sticks to get their grades up – but I am fighting an uphill battle to get their teachers to communicate with us inorder to help them. At the parent teacher interview with their english teacher I told her that I can’t help my children if she (their teacher) doesn’t talk/communicate to me/us. I am willing to help my children and do so every evening – however, when there is no work being sent home to work on – how am I to help them? I don’t spend the 6.5 hours with them their teacher does to know what is on the teaching curriculum to ensure that I am reinforcing what my daughters are learning.
My daughters are struggling and have been since JK/SK. We had a meeting with their principal in June and there was talk of pulling them out of the French Immersion program that they are currently in. However, I did not want to give up without trying everything to ensure that we had done it all to give them a chance. There was even talks of IEP (ind. education plans) and a promise of communication from their teachers to ensure success. I had to end an email to their French teacher 8 weeks into school to get feedback and the first time sat down with their English teacher was at the P/T interview (beg of Dec). That to me isn’t open communication to ensure that my children succeed. We also have a “no child left beyon policy” and I think that it is garbage – if my kids needed another year in SK then they should have stayed another year instead of being sent to Grade 1 as non readers – which I found out 6 weeks into Grade 1. I was furious. We worked like crazy and got them up to the min level required for the end of Grade 1.
I am not a teacher but I am parent that wants the best education for my children. At this point it means I have to find $200.00 a month in my budget to send them to additional programs (ie; tutoring) to ensure that success because I am not getting the assistance from the school and their teachers.
Geoff; when your son enters the school system and if he is a “less than average” student – be prepared to fight for his education. I am. And it frustrates me to no end.
December 15, 2009 at 11:58 am
I re-read my post and I was being a bit harsh and Pol I apologize. I meant no offense and only reacted to your rant against teachers which I thought was unfair. However as Sam said I went about it in an unfair manner.
I do maintain, however, that if my child were diagnosed with a learning disorder that within 3 months I’d know more about it than most teachers, and within a year know more about it than most doctors in the country. Maybe if you aren’t getting the help you need, you can find a parents advocacy group (or start one?) that has been where you are and can help get you and your child to where they need be.
Best,
Geoff.
December 15, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Joanne, understand where your coming from. But an extra $200/month for your kid’s education seems a small price to pay, no? It is too bad that we can save for a kid’s post secondary education tax free, but pre-post-secondary is all on us though.
And your right, my son has not entered the education system yet. But I do question why you can’t assign homework to your kids yourself, outside of their schooling so it won’t matter that work isn’t sent home with them.
I also think that if I wanted to meet with my kid’s teachers, I’d meet with them. Even if it meant border-line stalking and staking out their car. And if that didn’t work, I’d do it with the principal. Then the school board superintendent, then whoever. I’m really quite shameless at times. Then I’d move them to another school.
When it comes to my kid’s education and who’s in charge, like the movies say, “There’s God, and then there’s me.”
December 15, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Oh and I’m not sure that ‘no kids left behind’ is really garbage in and of itself. I’m not convinced that leaving a child to repeat a grade, to be a year (or more?) behind their peers, is good for the kids themselves or the younger children around them. Some kids also can catch up from being around the kids their own age, so I get the rationale behind the policy. However, my opinion may change in 5 years or so.
December 15, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Geoff:
$200/mo is a lot of money. If you want a tax benefit, verify if you can put it under childcare expenses. You might be able to do that if it is during your work hours.
Parents should not have to fork out extra money for a decent education in Canada. Some parents go to other curriculums to find better textbooks for homework. The problem can arise when you get ahead of the teacher and then the kids are bored in class because they already know the stuff.
December 15, 2009 at 1:18 pm
I’ve got a similar quote for you, Marie:
“I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.” — Mark Twain
December 15, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Two books that really challenged some of my long-held beliefs about education are Alfie Kohn’s _The Homework Myth_ (which has study after study showing homework is of zero benefit in elementary school, and much more) and especially his _Punished By Rewards_. I’m pretty sure he’s got a website with other articles–google away.
As a former teacher, now parent and homeschooler, I have sympathy on both sides. I know how much parents want to help their children, and how difficult this can be. I also know how stretched and constrained teachers are (you can only use these resources, must cover all these topics, and for only this amount of time…oh, and adapt the program for the 1/3 of your class on IEP/IPP’s for whatever reason–LD, gifted, physical/emotional challenges, ESL, etc. Once you’ve done all that, then sure–add in whatever your passions are!) I am lucky to live in a city with an incredible wealth of choices when it comes to education: mainstream (public or catholic), french- or spanish-immersion, science- or art-based schools, back to basics schools, charter schools, waldorf schools, private schools, homeschool…to name a few. I wish all families had this sort of choice as it makes it far easier to find a good fit for your particular children.
A great online resource for kids learning to read is http://www.starfall.com. It’s free, ad-free, and very kid-friendly. Check it out–its one of the few sites I allow my sons to play on without supervision.
December 15, 2009 at 2:21 pm
@ Risa – I also live in a city that offers an abundant set of educational choices (Toronto) but I woulnd’t say we’re lucky, we also pay through the nose for it (property values, taxes, the like).
December 15, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Geoff, our taxes here are not high, compared with many other places in Canada, though property values are high. A 500K house here pays taxes of about 2500/yr. But we pay for it with virtually no snow removal system: the “it’ll chinook soon” method.
And I don’t know about Toronto, but here there are lots of choices (not just french immersion!) within the mainstream boards, meaning you don’t have to pay an extra $8-15K / year to send your kid to private school. Unless you want to, of course. Charter schools are sort of in the middle (some additional cost, but parents ‘pay’ with volunteer time too). There’s even a ‘blended’ homeschooling option where your kids go to classes 2 half-days per week with other homeschooled kids to work on group projects, have gym, etc. and where they run field trips every other week.
And IMO, in the long run, we all pay more having kids ill-served by the education system. Not all kids are drawn to the same things; not all learn the same way or at the same rate. And we need more schools and school systems that understand that, rather than yet more standardized curriculum and testing. JMHO.
December 15, 2009 at 4:38 pm
I don’t know my credit score, and I don’t care. Nobody’s ever turned me down a loan, and I apparently overbid on my mortgage rate because the bank jumped at my first offer. Why would I need to know what number they’ve got to determine these decisions.
Good credit scores flow from good financial choices. If you’ve made poor financial choices, taking on more debt is inherently a bad option. And worrying about all the little factors that contribute to credit score is equally pointless if your not consistently paying your bills on time, or have too much debt for your income level. Fix the behaviour and the score will follow.
As for my credit card rate…I don’t pay interest, why would I care? (I do know on one card, but that’s only because they sent me a big promotional letter about it last year when it dropped to single digits.) 31% don’t know their rate, but then something like 43% of people don’t carry balances…I’m guessing there’s substantial overlap.
December 15, 2009 at 11:46 pm
Very interesting dialogue! I am reading it with great interest because I am currently testing a program to deliver to schools in the Toronto area called Centsible Students. We want to teach basic financial literacy skills to students from SK-Gr 6. We are passionate about teaching our children about money and want to bring it to the school system – in a similar manner to Scientists in the School. My business partner and I have both worked for the Canadian Centre for Financial Literacy and are currently developing an interactive curriculum that we hope to launch in January/February. We are not affliated with any banks or investment companies, so our message is unbiased. We appreciate the concept of save, spend and share – like MoonJar Canada, that Gail talked about on one of her shows. We hope to enhance the classroom learning around budgeting, interest, debt and other related topics, and provide teachers with pre and post resources to support their teaching around money. I would love to hear feedback from this lively group – from both parents and teachers on how to make this program a success. Our website is http://www.centsiblestudents. ca. Please check it out and let me know what you think!
December 16, 2009 at 6:02 am
[...] Read more from the original source: We Are an Ignorant Bunch « gailvazoxlade.com [...]
December 16, 2009 at 10:11 am
Maybe teaching financial responsiblity is a good idea for the school system. We now have sex education in schools, something that for a long time was either ignored or assumed that it would be taught in the home. It seems like a far-fetched comparison, but is it? Like sex education, money has either been ignored or assumed parents would take on the teaching and as society now shows people just don’t understand money, much like the many myths of intimate relationships.
December 19, 2009 at 12:30 am
I don’t know what my credit score is and i don’t care. our condo will be paid for next month and we will then save cash to buy a bigger one later. Our cars are paid for and we have enough money to replace both (they would be clunkers, but we’re not car people and don’t care). And we have enough money set aside for unexpected repairs a clunker would need. We are fully insured and hospitals can’t turn you away. So why care about the credit score? I work for insurance and can tell you that your rates aren’t that different for good vs. bad credit scores. Also, insurance companies are paranoid about complaints. File an official complaint if you have no credit score (because you pay cash for everything) and they’ll most likely do something about it. Any future employer who turns me down based on a low or complete lack of credit score alone is not someone I want to work with. I have a fantastic job and had a horrible credit score and they didn’t care.
About the computers in the room: I was a teacher and I can tell you as avid as you are about what they are surfing, you won’t catch it all. Install a program that will let you see what they are surfing. You’ll be surprised. My husband is a teacher and is super paranoid about monitoring their sites but he caught a middle school girl surfing porn when reviewing the sites this way!
December 21, 2009 at 11:17 pm
A friend of mine started a program in Canada which puts kids through a summer school program to teach them about financial literacy. It is an outstanding program for adults and children.
The website for anyone who is interested is: http://www.financialiq.ca/