Minimum Wage? Really?
Posted by Gail | Filed under Economics 101
From the school of You Learn Something Every Day comes a new appreciation for the complexity of the minimum wage system in Canada. You would think that “minimum” would mean the least a body would get paid. Not so. How little you get is not only a function of where you live but the kind of job you do and how old you are.
Alex has recently become employed in a grocery store. She knows she has to come up with her share of the money for university, and she’s balancing work, school and her extra-curricula to make as much as she can without blowing her marks. This was when I learned that a cashier over 18 makes more money than one under 18 who works 28 hours a week or less. Yup, by sheer dint of age, two people doing the same job at the same time in the same place can make different incomes. Hey, isn’t there some rule on the books about age discrimination? Guess not!
Alex was further appalled to find out that despite not even making minimum wage, she would lose almost 20% of every paycheque to union dues. “So, Mom,” she said, “if they can’t even get me minimum wage, what exactly am I paying the union to do?”
“Hey, “ I said. “This is the way of the world, and you can suck it up or you can get another job.”
Since it’s her first job, for the sake of a stable work history she’s decided to suck it up. But the question made me go and check who else is getting less than the minimum wage that the media and The Spurts like to quote when they’re bantering about incomes.
Between 1995 and 2005 minimum wage in Ontario rose from $6.85 an hour to $7.45. That’s right, in ten years the minimum wage went up a whopping 60¢. Wow! We’ve made some progress since then since the general minimum wage now sits at $9.50 (thanks Nicki) and is headed to $10.25 in March 2010. Unless you’re under 18, in which case it’s $8.90. (Ontario has the distinction of being the only province that still allows young workers to be paid less than adults.) Or you serve liquor, in which case it’s only $8.25. Home workers – people who do paid work in their own homes like sew clothes for a clothing manufacturer or answer telephone calls for a call centre – make $10.45 an hour as minimum wage. Hey, you mean if I don’t have to get dressed or pay for transportation I actually make more?
In Alberta, minimum wage is minimum wage and is only $8.40. But Albertans say that the average hourly wage Albertans make is $24.17 per hour. In B.C. the minimum wage for most workers is $8.00 per hour and that hasn’t moved since Nov. 1, 2001. In Saskatchewan it’s $9.25 but there’s also the provision that most employees are entitled to at least a minimum payment (“minimum call-out” pay) every time their employer requires them to report for work (other than for overtime), even if it turns out there is no work for them. The minimum wage in Manitoba is $8.50 per hour as of April 1, 2008 but the minimum wage provisions may not apply to agricultural workers, sitters, or part-time domestic workers. In Quebec the minimum wage rates since May 1, 2008, are $8.50 an hour unless you usually receive tips in which case it’s $7.75 an hour. Down east the rates are:
- New Brunswick: $7.75
- Newfoundland and Labrador: $8.50
- Nova Scotia: $8.10 (unless you’re inexperienced: $7.60)
- PEI: $8.00
Up north the rates are:
- NWT: $8.25 (and it hasn’t moved in six years)
- Nunavut: $10 (the highest in the country)
- Yukon: $8.89 (really? They couldn’t spring for the extra penny?)
All this is to say that generalizations about income must be very frustrating for people who live in areas where they are paid less than the “stated” minimum wage. And there are a lot of people who are just barely getting by. Minimum wage is not a living wage. Almost everyone agrees that it’s just about impossible to live independently on $17,000 a year in any major Canadian city. And while the labour movement likes to point out that it’s no coincidence that the lowest paid jobs are typically non-union, Alex has her own take on that point.
According to The Stats Man average income after tax in 2007 were:
| Two parent families with children |
|
| One earner |
58,700 |
| Two earners |
81,400 |
| Lone-parent families |
|
| Male |
52,100 |
| Female |
39,500 |
| Unattached individuals |
|
| Elderly male |
31,000 |
| Elderly female |
25,800 |
| Non-elderly male |
32,700 |
| Non-elderly female |
27,800 |
So how do you and your family compare? What are your frustrations about the current state of employment and pay in Canada? And if you could change one thing, what would it be?
November 9, 2009 at 8:03 am
My 20 years old son works part time for the Municipality (in Ontario) and he makes 9.03 per hour , not 10.25…Is he getting under paid or is this another “sub-group”?
November 9, 2009 at 8:24 am
Minimum wage doesn’t go up to $10.25 until March 1, 2010, right now the general minimum wage is $9.50.
November 9, 2009 at 8:25 am
Gail – are those average income numbers really after tax or are they gross? They seem way higher if net than some other numbers I saw on family income in Ontario.
November 9, 2009 at 8:26 am
I can’t complain about my salary, but I wish restaurants would pay their wait staff a decent wage so we can abolish tipping in North America. After living in Europe, I realise I’m willing to pay more for restaurant food when I don’t have to tip–and I’m happier doing it. There have been too many times when I’ve had horrible service in Canada or the US, but still feel obligated to tip because of wait staff having to rely on tips to make rent or whatnot.
November 9, 2009 at 8:32 am
Ed, according to the stats man, they are after tax… as for different numbers appearing elsewhere, I’ve had that experience myself… I think there must be dozens of ways of jerking the numbers around. Hmmm.
November 9, 2009 at 8:44 am
If I could change one thing I would make women get paid the same as men. And also have access to the same jobs. I’m tired of hearing the “women just aren’t as physically strong as men, don’t take it personally, it’s just biology” CRAP! Labour jobs tend to pay more and women saving for university should have the same shot of getting them as men.
I have worked a physically demanding job requiring me to lift and throw 50 lb bags of ice all day long and I did it. And I did it better than all the men he’d hired. My husband works in manufacturing requiring a lot more heavy lifting and of the 8 new employees he’s trained, it’s the lone girl (weighing in at 110 lbs) who is the best worker. Being able to do a job depends on being determined and punctual, not on being male or female. Case in point: a girl I went to university with made $10,000 in 2 months of tree planting and was the top tree planter in Ontario for the 4 years that she did it.
I like what Pope John Paul II said during the international year of the family “Every human being has the right to earn a decent wage so they can raise their family.”
November 9, 2009 at 9:06 am
Gail’s incorrect about Ontario being the only province that has a lower minimum wage for people under 18. BC has a “training wage” for young people who are new entrants into the labour market that is $2 less than its minimum wage. The $6 training wage is paid for the first 500 hours of work so someone working part-time hours can be paid 25% less doing the same work of someone working full-time hours. It’s just a gift to the retail and service industry courtesy of the government. If that isn’t enough to get you riled up, new entrants to the labour market (including women who’ve not worked before, new immigrants, and young people) need to work double the number of hours to qualify for employment insurance benefits – so if you have the misfortune of being new to the labour market and get laid off from your job (as the last people hired are usually the first laid off when a company needs to let people go) you can forget about accessing that EI fund that you paid into with your premiums.
November 9, 2009 at 9:13 am
I remember my first job at a grocery store it was $6.85 an hour. the Union took a good chunk of that and since I was a new hire I was on a New contract so while my best friend who also worked at the store was getting raises every 3 months like clock work I had to work 500 hours before the first raise. When I quit there He was making over $10/hour and I was at $7.05 a nice raise fromt he $6.85 I was working.
I swore when I left that job I’d never have another unionized job. I’m 8 years from that job and I’m doing pretty well with my salary. My friend on the other hand still works at the grocery store. So I think my desire to get out of the dead end union job motivated me to do as wll as I have.
regards,
Jason
November 9, 2009 at 9:28 am
In Ontario, age discrimination laws don’t start until you’re 18. Funny, since I think that’s a form of discrimination itself!
November 9, 2009 at 9:40 am
HA! having worked part time for a retail clothing store for two years – I have ‘climbed’ up to $9.96 / hour. New hires are making $10.00 flat. The company promotes their ‘competitive wages’. I would have left, but the 50% discount helps, and for the hours I work the difference is about $8 a year. Glad to know a ‘raise’ from the government is coming!
November 9, 2009 at 9:55 am
Jason,
As a registered nurse, I can assure you not all unionized jobs are dead end.
November 9, 2009 at 10:04 am
My dh is a member of a trade union, not a labour union, their workforce had a regulated trade (or apprenticing on their way to their journeyman status), they have great benefits and pay however they do take pride in providing some of the most educated & qualified workforce for their industry. THey provide training opportunities as part of their dues and dh takes every opportunity – we are paying for these opportunities through his dues, not something extra.
I am also apprenticing in a completely different trade & industry, but I am not in a union (it isn’t available for my trade unless I join a very large company but then it would be a labour union, I”d be lumped in with whatever employees are working now not jus tin my trade). I must say that working at $12 was great at the time – but having new hires start just under that almost seems like a pay cut – the rest of us who work at an hourly rate certainly don’t get a pay raise just because min wage went up…
My own experience with labour unions – you don’t need to be a skilled labourer to join, which weakens their position in regards to negotiating the best for their members. They work okay for handling who gets offered overtime, seniority etc, but they also hinder people who are working hard – a person can receive a promotion based on their seniority, not who is most qualified or who works the hardest. There are also many companies where you don’t join the union until you loose your temp status – which in some places could be years and they can’t /won’t protect you at all.
I am certainly not anti union, it has been great for my family, but you have to look at your situation and which union you will be joining. When you are looking for a job, it is a fair question to ask your interviewer if there is a union involved and how that will affect you.
November 9, 2009 at 10:04 am
Yes I agree Diana…when you are unionized it tends NOT to be dead end…more like higher end in my opinion.
November 9, 2009 at 10:10 am
Not all jobs for the young pay minimum wage. A friend of mine did sales and was paid on commission and did quite well when I was younger, and I was personally a soccer referee from the age of 14 – 20 and that pays surprisingly well (about $45/game once you get certified). So I usually ref’d about 3 games a week which was pretty good, and then if I did a tournament you could easily do about 5 games in one weekend and clear a couple hundred so I’m going to encourage my son to look a bit beyond the obvious, which includes starting his own company. I think what needs to change is this country needs to be more entrepreneurial in nature.
November 9, 2009 at 10:15 am
dh always makes a point of going in to pay for gas instead of paying at the pump. His reasoning is that he doesn’t want that job (of the cashier) to be lost because of automation. We already have a few unmanned gas stations, where the only option is to pay at the pump (we are in a rural area). My thoughts on that is that maybe a $10 an hour job isn’t what we should be aspiring to? Maybe the jobs that can be automated SHOULD be automated so that people can get the education/training that would be required at a better paying job.
Any thoughts on that?
November 9, 2009 at 10:20 am
Here is a great opportunity to educate your daughter about unions . . . her union is not something there to do things for her, but something for her to participate in. Paying dues is only one part of union membership . . . the other part is participation. She should talk to her steward about how to have her opinions about minimum wage heard by her union leaders. She can also ask about what opportunities there are for her to get involved. Most unions get excited about young new members who are interested and have ways of getting them involved in all sorts of activities including those around social justice and education. Also, remind her when she is doing her taxes that her dues are tax-deductible.
November 9, 2009 at 10:23 am
I have worked as a waitress in Ontario for a lot of years when my children were little. Working nights and weekends saved a lot on babysitters.
The lower wage for servers and bartenders is terrible. Yes they depend on tips and if they had bad tippers or if it was not busy, it almost didn’t pay to go in.
To Ann that feels like she should tip. Don’t feel that way. If the serve is bad, don’t tip. Now if the food is bad that is not the servers fault but then again if the food is cold that is the servers fault. I have gone up to owners/managers of restaurants and complained about really bad serve.
To the young people out there, I tell them that when they turn 18 (at least in Ontario) they should get a job in a restaurant. Even with the lower wage, the tips make up for it and more.
My husband works in a unionized environment and everything is regulated. The pay, the hours, the raises. Even there, management finds ways of giving perks/bonuses to the favourites.
What I am trying to say is there are good and bad situations every where. Know the rules/laws for your province. If your employer does something wrong either live with it or walk.
November 9, 2009 at 10:35 am
to chefesther…
so when going to a bank for money do you go see a teller?
anyway i do not like going in to pay…too much overpriced temptations to buy more (this is where they make their ‘real’ money.
i also hate being baggered by the attendant for upsell/buy more stuff (lottery tickets, drinks, etc).
i hate waiting in a line when i do not have to.
finally, i like the convenience of paying at the pump as my kids are in the car and i do not have to haul them all in to pay.
i am not worried about the fate of the attendant’s job…its a glorified corner store that will always be busy because of their convient nature (& hours).
November 9, 2009 at 10:42 am
I work at our local grocery store and it is unioinzed. Students and adults get the same rate of pay though. Minium wage. Full-time and part-time staff get different wages and benefit packages. Our contract was set 2 months before the government decided to up minium wage over 5 years. Great news, but our union did not know it was going up and the way teh contract is worded any raise you would earn gets wiped out by the new minium wage, it ends up being people who have been there a couple years and put in lots of hours now make the same amout as the person who walked in the door. Very frustrating and nothign can be done until the contract is up in 2 years. I find unions have their ups and downs. I’m glad we have ours because our owner and management play favourites. The union has had to step in a few times because they were breaking the rules. My biggest complaint is all the part-time jobs. Where I work there is too many “full” time part time staff, (work 35-40hrs a week, but are part time) all because it is cheaper for the company. Part-time staff is needed as well, but a few more full time opporunities would have less turnover in staff.
November 9, 2009 at 10:44 am
I agree with Angela – I am in customer service and if the service sucks – no tip from me! It doesn’t take much to smile and be courteous – I’m not asking them to stand on their head and spit nickels…It’s not rocket science – and if they’re relying on tips to make rent you think they would try a little harder – or find another job.
As far as what I would change, well, there are a couple things! First, I think dads who pay their child support religiously (sometimes early and sometimes extra!) should be able to claim at least a percentage on their income tax, and the rates at which we are taxed is gross, and for what? Down east we have a lot of crappy roads, customer service with the government sucks (with maybe a few exceptions)!, and I could go on but I won’t. I realize we have a good healthcare system, but it seems that my husband would be better off making less sometimes as I’ve seen some paycheques literally cut in half due to taxes!
Gail maybe you could shed some light on this for me, but I even went on the goc website to see where the money goes – and let’s just say I still couldn’t tell you.
November 9, 2009 at 10:45 am
to silverss:
I have 4 kids with me usually when I am getting gas – so I almost always pay at the pump instead of hauling everyone out, including 2 in car seats…
At the bank, I try to go in since I only have 2 with me and I don’t find the line ups too long for my toddler, must be the time of day I get there. Plus I do want my kids to know that the money doesn’t just come out of the machine! lol So when I can make it during their hours (again – a rural area with a bit stranger hours for their local financial institutions) I go in. Otherwise I can usually do everything I need to online or at the machine.
Again when we lived in the city, I appreciated the self check out at the grocery stores – I found I was much quicker than most cashiers even with kids with me…
I do think that we as a society are actually getting less people contact than ever before – lots of online stuff but less and less face to face time with people.
November 9, 2009 at 10:53 am
As far as training wages…as an employer – it generally costs more to train someone. You have to take someone else’s time who is already trained away from their job, or they can make costly mistakes while training etc. I realize it sucks for the employee, but if they work hard hopefully this will be rewarded – if not then get out…that’s how I feel about it anyway…I can’t stand companies where you have to suck up to management to get ahead – I worked for one for a while…then got out! I can’t stand games and politics.
November 9, 2009 at 10:58 am
My son worked for the town as a lifeguard. His scheduled shifts were two hours in length, the minimum hours shift requirement does not apply to students. He wanted the experience therefore the twenty minute drive each way for a two hour shift though very inconvenient was sucked up. I understand working with students may be a challenge as an employer however it works both ways.
On another note I always go to the service station where they pump gas, not because I’m lazy but because there is now only one in the area and I appreciate the great service. If I don’t support it may be there.
November 9, 2009 at 10:58 am
1. Automation. Where does it end?
There are discussions going on about “automated” pharmacy kiosks. Yes, pharmacies. The idea is that you insert your prescription into the machine (does your doctor have excellent penmanship?), you can speak with a pharmacist sitting in a call centre, the machine fills your prescription and pops it out. Getting my pop from a machine is one thing but my medicine?
Wherever possible I’d rather go into an establishment and speak with someone face to face. It takes a few more minutes but it’s worth it to me if I can help someone save their jobs and feed their families.
2. What would I change? A minimum wage is a minimum wage regardless of a person’s age or the type of work they are doing. Besides, how can you have more than one minimum of anything? This should definitely be changed in Ontario.
My mother has a food business. She has two students working for her. They have just started. She pays them the “adult” minimum wage. She refuses to take advantage of the situation and abuse them because they are young. She has also found that they earn every penny of their wage. They take their job seriously and work harder than some of the others she has on staff. Same job, same pay anything else is greed on the part of the employer.
November 9, 2009 at 11:02 am
I also work p/t for a unionized grocery store. They don’t believe in ‘experience’ wage, meaning that you would get paid a bit more if you had experience. I find it hilarious that I make minimum wage with over 7 years of cash experience. I find it even more funny (as someone said) that they advertise ‘competitive wages’.
After this week I will have 3 part-time/casual jobs to make up for the lack of a fulltime position. Yay for uncertainty and no benefits!
November 9, 2009 at 11:05 am
@ Alexandra-Your mother should be commended, the students will work hard and learn so much when working for an employer who treats them with respect.
Automated pharmacy? Now that is a call for disaster.
November 9, 2009 at 11:34 am
I guess it might be interesting to compare “Canada’s” average minimum wage to those of other countries – how do we stack up? I can’t remember what my starting wage was, but got a job in my area of studies and have been in that career ever since. It pays well with good benefits, but is non-unionized. Members of my family have worked in union jobs and I was always a little envious of the perks – company pension, personal days, spa week, an extra day off with a stat.
It’s a shame, however, that wait staff get paid such a pittance and have to rely on ‘tips’ to supplement their income. At the end of the day, you have to start somewhere. Sometimes when you have to work hard for your pennies – you learn: (i) get a better education so you can move up the pay scale ladder; (ii) be entrepreneurial so that you decide how much you get paid; (iii) work harder so that sweat equity gets you a pay raise (hopefully
). Unfortunately, with the very generous EI benefits that were paid out in the 80s and 90s and the abuse of the system (ppl who worked the minimum hrs to qualify and then stayed on it until their benefits ran out) – we are now faced with much tighter requirements to qualify. I remember oft times, friends saying they made more on ‘pogey’ than actually working a job! Those days are long gone.
November 9, 2009 at 11:43 am
My husband is in a trade union as well and they really stay on top of things…the wage is good and he has found the treatment at job sites better than at non-union jobs. He is a 3rd year right now and we are below the average income Gail posted, but when he becomes a journeyman in about 18 months we will be above it.
November 9, 2009 at 11:51 am
I see nothing wrong with the minimum wage. The minimum wage should be an incentive for people to work harder and gain the education to achieve higher. Minimum wage should not be viewed as an income to live on for the rest of one’s life, it should be viewed as the minimum I will get paid until I move up the corporate chain.
We’re brain washed in society to view minimum wage as anything but a stepping stone for something more. For instance, why do we tip in restaurants? We tip because the owner is too cheap to pay their staff higher wages, so as the guest we supplement the income that they owner fails to pay.
November 9, 2009 at 12:23 pm
I have no problem with the minimum wage for wait staff. I waitressed for years supplementing my incomes. I made a lot of money in tips. It was difficult to make as much money in a starting office position, actually I took a pay cut to work in an office. A job that required me to have an education! It paid off over the years, now I make a very good living. I think that if people are paid too much for the lower jobs there is no incentive to improve yourself.
I have also seen too many unions that are there to protect lazy workers. The promotions that go to the senior employees, instead of the employees that would actually do a good job. It is true that there are some instances where unions are needed, but there are many that are now just there to create a job for the Head Union guys. Where did the unions get the car industry? Unskilled labourer making $35/hr = jobs going out of country.
I believe everyone should be able to make a living, but I worked darn hard to get where I am, and I think many people expect it to be given to them. Someone with a University or College degree should not be making less than an unskilled labourer on the production line. Just my opinion.
November 9, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Unions are not just there for wages, they also ensure that the employers are keeping up with safety rules/regulations and our nurses’ union in BC helps pay for continuing education.
Many people without unionized jobs cannot afford to save substantially for retirement or are unable to afford dental care.
There was a serious need for unionization in the earlier days of their inception, but we are spoiled now and forget the abuses on the job that occured daily.
There are pros and cons with both sides of the union line.
As to automation of jobs, etc, I am completely against it.
Every member of society should be able to have a job. There are some people for whom schooling is not an option for many reasons (physical or mental handicaps,etc). I like talking to my teller at the bank, my cashier at the store. These daily interactions are important for any society. The world is not all about fast and faster, it is about people and humanity. (sorry, I realize that is a whole other blog subject).
I am certain that any of the people reading this don’t want to pay huge money for their cash-basis house keeper, babysitter, grass cutter, etc.
End of my boring philosphical viewpoint.
November 9, 2009 at 12:30 pm
I once gave a speech entitled “Feed Me”. It was a humorous speech about my quest for free food when I was a “starving” student. Interestingly, ten years later, I notice that the the phrase “the rich just get richer” seems to apply the more money you make. I make a very comfortable salary. It seems like every meeting I attend has free food. Good food. With lots of leftovers. “Leftovers in the kitchen!” is now a stock email in our company. Yet, I don’t need “free food”. I can afford to buy my lunch or bring it from home. Our administrative support people make the lowest wages. They buy or bring their own lunch or wait for leftovers. Those of us who make more money have expense accounts. We get together at a restaurant and it’s considered a meeting and gets expensed – this is standard protocol since we talk shop. We can afford to pay for our own meals – but we don’t have too.
Once of my friends is our receptionist who needs to count her pennies even to buy a coffee. She just purchased a home and is now struggling to make ends meet. Even buying groceries require careful planning.
One day I was examining my budget and realized I almost spend nothing on food – lunch, coffee etc. Our fridge at work is full of company-provided pop and juice. I travel every week so food is expensed. I’ve been spending my food budget on crap instead –when I should be saving it. I’m not even spending money on shampoo or soap since the hotels provide those things. Most days I have a car rental paid for by my company. I don’t even have to spend money on gas to run errands.
I think about people who are making close to minimum wage and the jobs that they do. Meals at fast-food places still cost those staff half-price yet many of them work in a job that’s physically very demanding.
I’ve been thinking lately about the ethics of this situation. I feel greedy and guilty when some people are struggling economically. I’ve started sending my hotel toiletries to the homeless shelter. I suggested we cut back on food at meetings. I’ve pointed out that we really don’t need ten different kinds of pop and six different juices. I got us a large food bank donation box that sits prominently in the kitchen to remind us to donate non-perishables. It’s kind of funny sometimes – we send the food bank lots of individual packs of jam, peanut butter or cheez-whiz leftover from breakfasts. My next step is to re-do my budget to account for spending less on food. I’m going to try and make a monthly donation of the leftover money to the food bank instead of spending it on me.
Long confession, I know. Thanks for taking the time to read it.
November 9, 2009 at 1:05 pm
@ Jason
Totally agree.. take look at the majority of jobs out there that pay minimum wage.. realtively few “skills” are required..higher paying jobs? specialized skills or training required.. it’s called capitalism.. if you as an employee have something that is in demand you will get paid for it.. working a minimum wage job was about the best advertisement out there for a university education for me.. I lasted 4 months working full time in the local video store after high school before I said get me back to school- I knew I wasn’t prepared to work min wage for the rest of my life..
November 9, 2009 at 1:18 pm
I’ve had all sorts of jobs as a youth (sometime 3 at once!) so I could pay for college and living expenses. I had minimum wage ($3.25/hr) that I kept the longest because it was fairly easy retail with decent hours and a great discount — at a drugstore — and that meant better prices on essentials like toilet paper and toothpaste! I also had an evening waitressing job, which I really did not like, it was very very hard, messy work with nasty hours. Weekend tips kept me there for longer than I liked. And I had a seasonal piecework job on a farm. That was a job that could make or break you. Being paid by the piece meant that my hourly wage could be just terrible or absolutely FANTASTIC depending on how fast I could go and what the going rate for the thing I was picking was. It was rewarding effort.
My son has discovered already (at age 12) that not all jobs are created equal. He REALLY wanted a paper route to save up for a bike. He got a big route (97 papers) in our neighbourhood of steep, long driveways. It was taking him THREE HOURS to deliver these papers! And at 8 cents each it was not the best money. If I helped him and really hauled we could get it done in 1 1/2 hours. Still not anywhere close to minimum wage. Not difficult work except that the papers don’t stop for bad weather, some people are extrordinarily particular aboout exactly WHERE on their porch it must be left, there are nasty dogs and Thursday papers with Christmas flyers are REALLY REALLY heavy! It became impossible for him to do the route after school and still be home in time for dinner and all the homework. So he had to give it up after 6 months.
November 9, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Oh one more thing. Raising minimum wage is a double edged sword. On the one hand it is great to give the hard workers a higher income…. on the other hand if everyone is making more (and paying more taxes) then the price of goods and services HAVE to go up to offset the expense of wages! (Having employees is a huge expense! Not just the wages, but all the other things that go on top of the wages like CPP, EI, Workers Comp, Taxes, Benefits……… the list is huge.) So in the end, the poor workers are back where they started because the dollars don’t go much farther. And everyone else that isn’t getting a raise has to may more too.
November 9, 2009 at 1:48 pm
WAY TO GO ANNA!!!!! Kudos to you for having that insight! Reminds me of what my mom said to me the other day – pray for abundance! – I couldn’t believe she said that and I told her I felt bad doing so. She said that if I make lots of money I can be in the situation to help others, so I’ve since changed my tune!
I admire you!
November 9, 2009 at 2:07 pm
I agree with Jason as well. I got my first real job (aside from babysitting) when I was 13. I scooped ice cream at a theme park. I loved my job and the people I worked with but it only paid 6.40 an hour. If I worked there for three summers then it would have moved up ten cents an hour. Although I enjoyed my job, I knew that I did not want to work there forever and got another job that paid more so that I could work throughout the school year and help pay for the RESPs I was making for myself. Getting another job was much easier at this point because I had experience!
I do think that minimum wage is good for students, it encourages employers to hire students (less pay is good for employers), and allows students to gain experience working. I think it also encourages students to think about the future and what kind of work they enjoy. Then think about what it takes to get there.
November 9, 2009 at 2:09 pm
I grew up in Ottawa and when I worked in the private sector I used to think that government employees were all over paid, fat cat, lazy workers. Eventually I got a government job and after a few months I came to the realization that I (and a lot of people) are brain washed idiots and that government employees are not overpaid – they are just getting a REAL living wage. Something the government and private sector needs to do for all employees first before taking huge bonuses, raises and benefits for themselves. In the private sector a few at the top make huge bucks but the majority are underpaid with poor benefits and even worse job security no matter how hard they work. I earned more wages and benefits as a government employee but I worked just as hard for my government employee wages and benefits as I did in the private sector. I had the best job security I had ever had but this did not change me into a lazy complacent worker. I did not suffer any loss of work ethic and in fact I was a better employee because I felt financially appreciated.
I live in the Yukon so with a minimum wage of $8.89 working 40 hours a week for 50 weeks a year (dreaming of a two week vacation but probably never being able to afford one) gross income would be $17,780. This is below the poverty line. It is also interesting to note that if you get the maximum old age pension with all the subsidies you are also fall below the poverty line (or $29 over – I forget which).
Minimum wage needs to be raised to the level where by it takes people out of poverty, not keeps them trapped. It also needs to be indexed to inflation.
As for Unions. I have worked Union jobs both as a full time employee and as a part time employee and I was not just a due payer but an active participant. As a full time employee I sincerely felt that my union was looking out for my interests. Then I became a part time employee and our contract was running out. I quickly learned that we the part time employees were the pawns in the negotiations. Our interests were thrown to the wolves in order to get a better deal for the full timers. Since then my regard for unions has completely disappeared. They did good in the beginning to protect all workers but now it is selective. It is back to that old attitude of “I’m all right Jack”.
November 9, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Oh I should also say that to those parents who do not let their kids have summer jobs that it is actually a big disadvantage to your children (although some may think it’s helping). I think having a job is a great way to gain experience, and learn about managing time and money.
November 9, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Just to let you know. Minimum wage in Manitoba went up to $9.00/hr on October 1, 2009.
November 9, 2009 at 2:41 pm
I have always sat on the fence regarding high school students working. I do think it is great work experience and that they should be saving money for post-secondary plans. I think it teaches them responsibility, conflict management (I thoroughly enjoy getting yelled at for things that are out of my control i.e. new bagging systems) and of course money management
But as a kid who worked 3-4 shifts a week, all weekends and all summer, I can definitely say I wish I had a typical ‘teen-age’ childhood. I never went to cottages, rarely dated and basically went to school, orchestra, track practice and work. It turned me into a workaholic who has issues with down time. This was my first summer completely off and let me tell you it was an adjustment!
Also in all honestly, both myself and some teens of today should be focusing on school work/their education. My grades would have definitely been higher if I didn’t have to work all the time. First year university was a mess because I never studied and didn’t really know how to study. Having a job is all great and all, but if you can’t keep your grades up, is it worth it? However there are many p/t jobs out there that are flexible. My supermarket is flexible, that certain big blue and yellow store from the States was most definitely not.
November 9, 2009 at 3:30 pm
What I find interesting in your research is the elderly women and the amount of money they take home compared to a elderly man. As I take care of our children, my husband is making a decient wage, we have benefits and he has a pension. At this moment I am unclear about how much of that pension I will recieve if anything were to ever happen to him either now or in the future. If he were to leave me or something that I cannot control. It is hard to live off one income, and tuck away his earnings into an RRSP for myself. I need to get more educated on the subject because I don’t want to be working till I’m 70 or living in poverty. Oh being a stay at home mom has it’s perks and drawbacks. Sigh.
November 9, 2009 at 3:56 pm
I was a server for 5 years. I was paid minimum wage. My paycheques would be like $100.00 every week (when I was part-time). Serving is an incredibilily difficult job. Where I worked we were always busy. I would be speed walking for 5-7 hours a night lifting plates/platters that weighed 5lbs-10lbs before you even put the food on them. I would come home exhausted, sore, blistered feet, and with knots all of over my back and shoulders. The only time I do not tip a server is if they are rude or if they are ignoring our table (but only if the restuarant is slow, if its busy I still tip). Before I found my office (after completing my post-secondary) I was serving full-time and when I came to this job I actually took quite a large pay cut. I think servers deserve every penny of the money they make and sometime more.
I work in Payroll so I see how companies base their pay and I agree with Anna. The lower paid employees have virtually no benefits/perks compared to the higher paid employees.
The higher earners get better benefits, company vehicles, expense accounts, stocks, clothing allowances, and on and on and on. The lower earners have basic benefits and thats it. Its sad.
November 9, 2009 at 4:21 pm
“I work in Payroll so I see how companies base their pay and I agree with Anna. The lower paid employees have virtually no benefits/perks compared to the higher paid employees.
The higher earners get better benefits, company vehicles, expense accounts, stocks, clothing allowances, and on and on and on. The lower earners have basic benefits and thats it. Its sad.”
take a look at the job descriptions, responsibilities , training education between your higher paid employees and the least paid? are you telling me that there is no difference in the work being performed to account for these differences? People sometimes forget the unseen things that go along with higher salaries and “perks” .. does that higher employee get overtime? do they get to leave and shut down their computer simply becuase it is 5 pm? Are they accountable – possibly terminated if they don’t meet the objectives/goals of their job? you can’t possibly compare the two..
November 9, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Gail, I think you’re awfully snarky about the higher minimum wage for home workers…
I worked from home this summer, and it was not easy. You’re often required to do split shifts (I worked an hour and a half first thing in the morning and an hour and a half in the evening, plus some hours during the day; often up to 14), you have to pay for your utilities (needed higher quality internet service), and, if you were doing as I was and working phones from home, you need to keep your house silent for that duration. This means that when I was working from home, my fiance had to remain absolutely silent. It ruined both of our lives.
I do agree that people under 18 should not be discriminated against. I’m working my way through university, and working for $6.40 was not cutting it back in my high school days.
November 9, 2009 at 4:53 pm
They have just raised the min wage in Newfoundland. I was working at a call center and it made them raise all of our wages to 10.00 (for anyone one under 10)
The wage has been raised to 9.00 as of July 1st, and here are the planned raises.
January 1, 2010 9.50
July 1, 2010 10.00
November 9, 2009 at 5:10 pm
I was a lifeguard and swim instructor through high school and university.
As much as a 2hr shift can seem “hardly worth it”, when you are in university and your classes are all over the map it is sometimes hard to fit in work, and I was greatful to be able to work at the university pool between classes. And as a highschool student, a 2hr shift still allowed me to have time at night for school work.
Personally, I have to be busy to get things done. Tons of free time to “study” meant I didn’t get anything done in university. My grades were better when I had a bit of structure to my day (class, work, sports, etc.) and made a conscious effort to make time for school work.
One benefit of lifeguarding is that you need qualifications to do it, so you are usually paid more than minimum wage. No to knock grocery stor clerks, but without formalized training it’s hard to ask for more money. My wages in 1997-2004 ranged from $8.00/hr to over $14.00/hr. The worst pay I got was lifeguarding at the Y in one particular city, and the best pay I had was working at a hotel. The funny thing – I worked both those jobs at the same time for a while.
I’ve worked in unionized and non-unionized environtments. Unionized lifeguarding had some benefits and drawbacks. The benefits were the regular wage increases, backpay, and more regular training opportunities, but the drawback was that when the city went on strike over benefits issues for the full time employees (garbage workers, and those in charge of recreational programming) it always fell during the summer months when part time employees (students) only have 8-10 weeks to work fulltime hours. I definintely felt like a “pawn” and the frontline workers are the ones who have to deal with the resentment of the public in a recreation setting.
I understand that sometimes people have limited choices with jobs (hey, you gotta do what you gotta do!), but I think that sometimes people haven’t thoroughly explored employment options when they are working for minimum wage. Like Gail’s daughter, you make a choice whether or not to stay.
November 9, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Pardon the typos.
November 9, 2009 at 7:07 pm
Seven years of university training paid off with a job that places me well above the average net annual income for a non-elderly unattached female and earns me almost as much as two people in a two parent household with children.
When you put me and my husband’s income together, we make much more than the average net annual income for two people with children. We don’t live like we’re better than average. We live within our means and save for our goals. We have enough for ourselves and for our daughter and for baby-to-be. It’s a good (debt-free) life!
November 9, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Good point Amy, but trust me I won’t make the comparison lightly. I do realize the differences in the positions but I don’t think its that much more work or of a skill level to justify the $100,000-$200,000 difference in pay. The higher earners in our company do not have any post-secondary education except one person, they are typically the last ones in the office and the first ones gone not including their 1-2 hour lunch. The lower earners I work with are usually required to have a business diploma/degree or something similar and are in the office before and after hours without additional compensation.
It may not be this way in most companies but sure is in mine and thats why it is sad.
November 9, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Getting a higher education is not a right, it’s a privilege. Not everyone can attend college or university and I think that there should be another option for those people.
Yes, minimum wage could be considered a stepping stone, but it could also be for that single mother who is busting her butt trying to make a life for her family.
I am in BC, and with the cost of living, I think having the lowest minimum wage in the country is embarrassing! Especially since we have a higher cost of living.
And I also think it’s appalling that a mother of 2 on welfare, brings in more money than the single mother working for minimum wage… just saying.
November 9, 2009 at 8:12 pm
If I could change one thing, it would be two things really. People who make less than $25,000 should not pay any income tax, really they would spend it on stuff and stimulate the economy without costing small businesses anything.
The second thing I’d do is allow families to income split. This would allow people with uneven incomes to pay income tax on the average income each. (Both parties could claim the same income, the average income of the family). For my husband and I, who had the same family income as his sister and her husband. They both worked and my husband made the same gross income of both of them together. So, the family gross income was the same, but the net income was 500$ per month less for us. One person making a good income and supporting their family is being penalized by the tax ma
November 9, 2009 at 9:49 pm
People under 18 can’t vote. They have no voice in politics and are not taken seriously. Thus the different rules.
November 9, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Also, I seem to remember from Economics 101 back in college that raising minimum wage actually causes unemployment to rise. Now, if that is true, this implies that there are two options: fewer people working in higher paying jobs or more people working in lower paying jobs? Or is there a happy medium? And how do we get there?
Disclaimer: I am not an economics person, just took one course about 10 years ago.
November 9, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Well according to the chart, my mom who is the elderly unattached (widowed) is making slightly above what is there, and I make almost double for the unattached younger female. I guess we’re doing alright.
November 10, 2009 at 12:39 am
Just a note the lifeguard job was great, the only drawback was the short shift. The experience and training was great and the connections fabulous which is why as a high school student it was a great opportunity and worth the drive.
November 10, 2009 at 3:00 am
I’ve found that minimum wage is a very decent living wage for a single, unattached individual, even allowing a modest amount of saving while paying rent. I do not consider myself in dire poverty during the times i live on minimum wage. It’s also very possible to get into a job that pays more once you have some experience (and I don’t mean a 10 cent raise, I’m talking 12-18/hr).
As I say, that is the case of a single person, if you have children, a major medical emergency, or a similar disaster, it is no longer enough. The minimum wage has to go up because as much as we say that a low pay is motivation to get an education, it is not always possible. If you have two kids and suddenly no husband, you just cant afford to go back and get a college degree for two years, let alone a bachelor’s for four.
November 10, 2009 at 2:08 pm
I would love to work full time in my field. When we moved from Alberta to NS because of my husbands work (Military) my job choices were sparse. The work I *could* get with my degree and experience was not worth working after I figured out childcare, travel expenses and clothing costs. Out west I was making over 20 dollars an hour. Here? I’d be lucky to make 12.
I got desperate recently, thinking that heck, I could work evenings and weekends at Zellers or a grocery store for minimum wage and save on childcare!
Then my husband got notice that he was being deployed to go overseas December 1st.
There went that idea.
So, I plug away at my business again. Try to reduce costs so I can make more money without affecting quality. At least I can run my business for the most part without too much reliance on child care.
What would I change? How about increasing the military pay, so that when spouses are forced to move and be without work it isn’t a hardship on the family. My husband in his specialized field could be making double on “civvy street”, but he loves serving our country. As the one who does the bills and who has to say “no” constantly, this makes me a bit bitter when politicians spend our money on increasing their salary, or make stupid decisions that end up costing tax payers millions.
November 10, 2009 at 3:18 pm
I would call the Union and check into the 20% being deducted for Union dues. Most unions have dues of between 1.8 and 2%, so 20% would be unheard of.
November 10, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Most of those income scales are not the norm
Must have been blue chip job statistics.
certainly not the average
November 10, 2009 at 3:41 pm
BC not only has a minimum wage of $8.00 that hasn’t moved since 2001, we also have a “training wage” that allows employers to offer only $6.00 per hour to anyone who has less than X hours of experience. That one nails not just students and young people, but also immigrants, since they can’t always prove experience (at least, to the employer’s satisfaction). Could also apply to anyone changing careers (unless it’s to a job with a higher demand for employees where they’re paying more than minimum wage). For example, if you’ve been working in the library system at just over minimum wage for 10 years, but are switching into retail – or are going back to work after being off for a couple of years having kids – you could get stuck with the $6.00 training wage, even at the age of 30 or 40.
In a province that has two or three of the country’s most expensive housing/rental markets, this is shameful.
November 10, 2009 at 4:57 pm
There a few things I would change, not just one!
But first you need some principles.
1) Anyone willing and able to work a full work week (40 hours) should also be able to earn a sufficient wage to be self-supporting.
2) People in low income jobs have should have some level of income security and some protections from emergency costs (medical etc.)
3) Irrespective of income people should enjoy some level of quality of life.
Now I’m not speaking here of any kind of socialist utopia. Able-bodied adults need to work a full week’s hours if they can, and of course you get a much more modest pay for entry-level, low-skill, low-responsibility work.
But people should has some measure of fairness, not everyone can be a heart surgeon or well-paid construction worker, and those who aren’t should do without the basics, or live in constant fear of not making the rent.
To that end:
1) Minimum Wage should be aligned with the local poverty wage rate for the basics, while it can’t vary in every little town, there needs to be an acknowledgment that is much more expensive to live in Toronto than North Bay.
As such, the minimum wage in most parts of Canada could be $10.00 an hour; but in Cities like Toronto that won’t cut it. At least $12.00 is required, and that’s being very optimistic.
2) The Basic personal exemption (the level below which you pay no income tax) should be aligned with the minimum wage, so that taxes do not have the effect of pushing someone into poverty who otherwise would be self-sufficient.
3) Every body should get a least a small number (5??) of paid sick days. This is important as low wage earners are often those without, and if they get genuinely sick, they may find themselves short of rent money, or perhaps even transit fare to get to work! This is a bit complicated for people with hourly shifts that vary from week to week, but there are formulas that make it do-able.
4) Finally, every one should get at least 3 weeks paid vacation. Most of the world gets 4 weeks, not just Europe, but places like Australia, India, and Brazil. Even the Japanese get more than 2 weeks, and 13 statutory holidays to boot. Aside from providing a better quality of life; the greater vacation standards mean greater employment (up to a point)
I should point out, Saskatchewan has 3 weeks paid vacation, but is the only province to require this.
November 11, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Actually, I would install a guaranteed minimum citizen revenue for every adult and get rid of welfare along with all its perks, policing and costly management.
Let’s say 500 $ per month for each adult canadian citizen without discrimination. That is 6000 $ a year rewarding everyone, adding up to general income, make it minimum or not. For the really wealthy, might be a way to do a trade in for charity of else, for most people, it would simply push them in the next taxation bracket. One thing is sure, it would help the economy thrive.
So you wanna pile up in a 2 bedroom apartment to save up on rent? fine. You wanna work more, work less. No problem. And for single parent with kids… just boost the child support accordingly. Basically, we spend millions of dollars just to manage, file, investigate, grant and cut… This would be a big start up… but the returns would be amazing. And that is a way to bypass the wages which, as dictated by the market and the world economy, are hard to increase.
What about that Gail?
November 12, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Marc, I love that idea!
November 12, 2009 at 12:23 pm
I’d want the benefits boosted depending on circumstance (not just with kids). disabled people etc need more than $500 a mnth to live. but a $500 base would be awesome.
November 14, 2009 at 12:53 am
I’m working two jobs right now – 48 to 56 hours a week – that will net me about 21k this year, and it’s pretty disheartening. Especially because I thought I was being smart by getting a (debt-free) professional degree, only to graduate this past spring to find no one hiring in my field. I live in a single rented room and keep to a budget that is extremely tight but would be manageable if I had benefits. I’m sick with worry all the time over what would happen if I had a dental emergency; it’s going to take me the better part of a year to save up for an optometrist’s appointment; the amount of my pay my prescriptions take up makes me cry every time I leave the pharmacy; and my savings took a hit this summer when I had an accident and got stuck with a $400 ambulance bill.
I know I’m lucky to live in a country where so many services are covered, but I can’t give 20% of what I make to taxes and be confident that my health will be provided for, which is a really scary way to live. I would be immensely more comfortable on what I’m making if my provincial health coverage included some sort of drug plan and at least a ‘once every two years’ dentist and optometrist check-up for adults.
November 14, 2009 at 4:42 am
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/public/pub/drugs/trillium.html
Sam; if you live in Ontario check out the above link for the Trillium benefit plan. There is a bit of work involved (paperwork etc) but it may help you with your prescriptions.
If you aren’t in Ontario, you may find that other provinces have similar programs with a google search.
Good Luck
November 15, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Thanks, Joanne – I moved recently, so I’m still waiting out the three months of residency I need to establish to get a provincial health card where I am now, but I’ll definitely look to see if there are any similar programs.
November 16, 2009 at 8:17 am
If you buy safety glass frames, lots of those are cheap and they don’t break easy.
Don’t buy the newer trends.
Trilliums okay but its only for drugs keep that in mind.
It has a fairly high deductable to for what you’d expect.
In other words you pay full each perscription first till you get to your assessed deductable amount, specific per person based on income then its paid.
For you it will be better single thou.