Making A Complaint
Posted by Gail | Filed under Credit Wise
I’m annoyed and distressed by some of the letters I’ve been getting recently, like the one I’m about to share with you. People have been writing to tell me of circumstance in which partners, young adult children, and parents have be given credit they could in no way afford to manage. I’m annoyed that this is still going on. And I’m distressed at how disruptive one person’s stupid behaviour can be to the rest of a family unit.
Here is A’s letter:
As a married woman am I responsible for my husbands debts? We are seniors. I am 63 & he is almost 70! My husband purchased a fancy expensive vehicle that he can’t afford to pay for! I didn’t know he was doing it, didn’t know it until after he brought it home (week of my daughter in law’s funeral), so I was obviously not paying attention to what he was up to! (I didn’t sign for it or even know about it!) He declined “life insurance” according to the bank contract! He says he wasn’t asked if he wanted it! Contract has “HOUSE” stamped on it!
He hid the paperwork from me for over 2 weeks before I found it! He had these payments set up to come out automatically from our joint account! As soon as I got the papers in my hand & found out what he had paid for this vehicle I went to the dealer & tried to get them to take it back as it hadn’t been driven at this point but they refused. I couldn’t imagine a bank (TD) giving this kind of credit to a man his age with only old age security pension & CPP income!
Our home is nearly paid off (in both our names). Can the bank put a lien against our home if he can’t keep up his payments & he is forced to return vehicle to bank (voluntary repo)??? Which I know will ruin his credit! What a shame!
I am responsible for making all payments (he has never dealt with the bills) he is just not capable of it also I suspect that he is dealing with altzimers disease (spelling?) He won’t go to any doctors so can’t get him diagnosed! Am trying to manage over $500 monthly payment on a seniors pension & just can’t do it! Making payments with other credit cards ,,,,, (trying to keep his perfect credit intact!) long enough to hopefully sell the vehicle!
That vehicle payment alone takes most of his pension leaving me responsible for everything else including mortgage payments, utilities, etc. from my small pension! Have been trying to sell vehicle but because it was “overpriced” to begin with & it is a full size vehicle (not energy efficient) he can’t sell it & get enough money to clear it! Loan is for 7 years!!! What a mess! Have had it advertized since end of Nov & not an enquiry!
He has put us in a situation now that we can’t even buy groceries,,,,& keep up with all the financial obligations! (Have other credit card debt as well)!
I am so sorry that you are dealing with such a difficult issue at such a trying time. I strongly recommend you do the following, keeping in mind that trying to resolve any kind of complaint can be very stressful. Try to stay calm, and be polite:
Go to the branch where the loan was taken and ask to speak with the branch manager. Make sure you keep notes of who you talk to, when, and any important details of your conversations.
If (s)he cannot help, ask for the bank’s written complaint procedure. Write “Complaint” in big letters at the top of your letter. Describe the problem clearly. Tell them what you expect as a solution. Make sure you have all the appropriate documents, such as brochures, account statements and copies of contracts. Keep your originals and send only copies.
You may need to keep escalating the issue with more senior people at the bank to get heard. Don’t take “no” for an answer. Most banks have an internal ombudsman or compliance officer whose job it is to review issues that may be beyond a branch manager. This ombudsman or compliance officer will likely be the last step in the internal complaints process. Ask them to provide you with a final letter outlining the firm’s position on your complaint.
In the meantime, try to get a diagnosis for your husband’s condition. Tell him if he won’t see a doctor, you won’t pay his bills anymore.
If the problem cannot be resolved internally, then the next step is to seek external help. Here is the contact information for the Ombudsman for Banking Services and Investments:
Toll-free telephone: 1-888-451-4519
Toll-free fax: 1-888-422-2865
Website: www.obsi.ca
Email: ombudsman@obsi.ca
Regular mail:
Ombudsman for Banking Services and Investments
PO Box 896, STN Adelaide
Toronto, ON M5C 2K3
This office claims to provide “Fair and independent dispute resolution.” I haven’t had any experience with them personally. (if any of you have, please leave your wisdom for us in the comments.)
As for how to cope in the mean time, I strongly suggest you remove all access to any forms of credit your husband may have. I also recommend that you transfer all assets (bank accounts, etc.) into your name alone, so you’re not side-swiped by another such decision.
Remember to keep copies of all correspondence and notes of phone calls.
November 4, 2009 at 7:04 am
OMG I cannot believe the tactics desperate sales people take. I am in Australia and the number of sales staff that are paid only by Commissions are forced by desperation to lure buyers, any buyers. Be sure to check the contract/application information. Many sales people lie blatantly on applications because they know the consumer wouldn’t have a hope in hell getting credit. After years and years of declines, my parents eventually got a home loan. The salesperson was so “nice”. They were amazed at how great he was, until they realised that there wasn’t a hope they could meet the monthly repayments (despite my continued cries for them to question why after so long only 1 lender would lend to them). Further inspection of the loan documents, all completed by the salesperson online, revealed my parents had non-cash assets (cars, artwork, jewellery) worth millions of dollars. There is nothing that can be done unfortunately, however such cases are rare in Australia, we have very strong regulation in the banking sector, however you can never be too careful!
November 4, 2009 at 7:18 am
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November 4, 2009 at 7:19 am
Wow. That sort of sales method seems to be close to criminal if you ask me. I think this is a good reason to have Power of Attorney’s in place and then get a medical diagnosis.
I think it’s a shame what some sales people will do to make a sale.
regards,
Jason
November 4, 2009 at 7:59 am
Another sad story thats going on ALL ages all over today.
How are you going to prove he’s not right good luck
Doctors won’t discuss even spouses conditions with the other spouse its called privacy.
Seen it here with a relative and their other half.
Oh there are exceptions good luck getting it if its not an illness or such condition.
The real poblem in these sick deals is the spouse who wouldn’t do this actually gets run to the grave early with worry and stress!!!!…while the spendthrift spouse just keeps smiling and spending and running their and most likely the caring spouses life!!!
Look at the people who get a credit card for a live in or spouse see the results there to a mess usually.
November 4, 2009 at 8:01 am
It sounds like that loan was done through the dealership..not the bank…TD may be the bank the dealership uses…BUT, that doesn’t mean a local TD branch won’t help her…(also if the car has been for sale since the end of November it sounds like this happened last year prior to the credit crunch), anyway, she needs to start with her local branch ( I have helped clients in this situation before) there she should find the support and resource she needs…and if TD is her day to day bank they can help her deal with some of the other concerns she has about their general banking…
November 4, 2009 at 8:02 am
That is such a sad story.
I hope it works out for the best. TD should be able to have some clout to help out.
November 4, 2009 at 8:55 am
This is a very tragic story. But I think it is harsh to call this behaviour stupid as it seems like this gentleman is failing and showing signs of Alzheimer’s.
There have been letters illustrating far more ridiculous behaviour without the mitigating factor of a declining mental status.
I do hope this poor woman is able to get some help or at least get the car company to accept the return of the vehicle. Dealing with the life-altering illness in a spouse is stressful enough without having to worry about finances, as well.
November 4, 2009 at 9:12 am
This definitely sounds to me like the loan was arranged through the dealer. However once the loan has been arranged, you should be able to try to deal at any local branch of the TD. However, unless she can prove that her husband was in a compromised mental state there is not likely anything that can be done. Her husband was likely not even offered life insurance because he didn’t qualify, most dealership insurance companies have a cut-off age of 69. There are many elderly people who come into my dealership everyday and make purchases and while we watch carefully for any signs that the customer is not totally “with it”, it is very difficult to determine. For all we know this customer has been waiting their whole life to own a luxury car and now the time has come. Arranging financing as today’s low interest rates is more common than ever and means that most seniors do not have to take large chunks out of investments for car purchasers. If you do not make the payments on the car, it will be re-possessed and then sold at auction and the bank will make the decision whether or not to pursue the difference against your husband.
November 4, 2009 at 9:55 am
i am not a professional, but if i were in her situation, i would attempt to sell the vehicle, as she is doing, but i would also stop making the payments on it, if it was taking taking food off the table and risking a mortgage default.
Let the bank take the vehicle. they will sell it, and as someone already said, they will come after your husband for the difference, he has no real income, so he will end up with monthly payments to the bank, which will be a smaller monthly payment than what the car is currently costing.
Yes, his credit will be shot, but he is 69 and you are already very close to owning your home.
Good credit is more important when you are looking to buy a house or vehicle. at your stage, it needn’t be your first priority anymore, living stress free should be on the top of your list.
Just my 2 cents. good Luck.
November 4, 2009 at 9:57 am
Can you get a doctor to come to your house to make a diagnosis?
November 4, 2009 at 10:17 am
I would attempt to have his name removed from the title of the house to further protect that joint asset before making any decision about defaulting on payments.
November 4, 2009 at 10:39 am
I use to be a credit counsellor. I once had a client in a similar situation – his wife leased 3 cars (she doesn’t have a driver’s lisence) through financing offered by the manufacturer. Her only income was disability payments – they still let her lease 3 cars.
As his wife had a diagnosis of being bi-polar, he was able to provide a letter to the finance company and car dealership from the physician who was treating her. At first they refused to accept the return of the cars and cancel the lease agreement.
It ultimately went to court where a judge ordered that the transaction was void.
November 4, 2009 at 10:47 am
When you do get him to a doctor please have them consider Frontal Lobe Dementia as well as Alzheimer’s. My father has FLD and the spending, lack of insight of the consequences, lack of empathy (this happening during a death in the family), and impulsiveness all suggest having this checked out. Many doctors aren’t as familiar with FLD so please put it out there to them. He should also have a good physical work up and also be assessed for depression. You may need some of the same tactics for the doctors as Gail suggested for the banks. Be polite but clear about what you have observed in your husband and that you want him to be checked out. Bringing notes about your observations is also good to do. You could also make an appointment with his doctor to speak to him/her alone before they see your husband as it may be hard to speak in front of him (especially if he thinks that there is nothing wrong!). The doctor may not be able to comment on these things back to you (privacy) but they should be able to listen to your concerns if they are a good doctor. The doctor may also be able to come up with some strategies to get him to the office to be seen such as the flu shot or something. If you need to take control of the finances the Alzheimer’s society often has information about what needs to be done in this sort of situation. They may also be able to help you with ideas about the car situation. Sorry this is so long. Just passing along some of our experiences. My thoughts are with you.
November 4, 2009 at 11:10 am
+1 for Joanne. It’s a misconception that married people are responsible for each other’s debts, unless they signed for it. HOWEVER, that doesn’t mean that joint assets can’t be allocated 100% to pay for these debts. So in other words, Mrs. is not responsible for Mr’s debt, but that doesn’t mean the bank can’t take the house that’s in both their names to pay for Mr’s debt.
So get the house put in your name, Mrs. Many people who have a spouse who run a business do this, because creditors can only go after assets the undersigned have a stake in. (Ie just because my dad can’t pay his debts doesn’t mean that my wife and I lose our home unless I guaranteed his debt). It may cost a few thousand, it may cost you land transfer tax + legal fees, but sleep at night knowing your house is yours and is never going away.
November 4, 2009 at 11:52 am
sounds like a dealership….also, usually you can’t get insurance after age69
November 4, 2009 at 12:16 pm
If he has dementia/alzheimers then he is likely incompetent to make financial decisions and then the car purchase agreement is invalid. Go see a lawyer.
November 4, 2009 at 12:42 pm
This reminds me very much of a situation that happened with my sister in the late 1980’s… she was sold a car at a very inflated rate by the mom of one of her friends (who was a car salesperson). My sister was only 18, unemployed, and didn’t even have a driver’s license. My father was tricked or coerced into co-signing for the car, it ended up reposessed as she had no income, and it hurt both her & my father in the credit rating department.
November 4, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I hope he has some sort of mental disorder… not that I wish that for their family (or any family), but because it would be a better explanation than betrayal on that scale. To leave your family without the ability to buy groceries?
November 4, 2009 at 2:46 pm
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November 4, 2009 at 3:45 pm
What a terrible situation. I hope your advice, Gail, is taken and the resolution is adequate!
November 4, 2009 at 4:22 pm
I am shocked. Absolutely shocked, at this situation. Another example of incredible greed on the part of the dealership. I don’t even understand how he managed to get the financing. I pray this gets solved quickly.
Please post an update as the situation unfolds.
November 4, 2009 at 5:09 pm
This is very sad.
Great advice Gail, it’s difficult not to have a strong emotional reaction to this experience.
Sounds like this person has been responsible for their spouse in many ways for a long time.
What really stands out for me is despite the stress that this must be causing there is a mention (twice!) of keeping the husbands credit rating intact “its a shame to ruin his credit..”.
I think it’s a shame to have one person carrying this burden which was not even their doing.
Best of luck.
November 4, 2009 at 7:36 pm
It’s funny how everyone jumped on the idea that it was a dealership. It wasn’t. It was a bank. Hmmm.
November 4, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Well then the BANK should definately be held responsible. Unfortunately, I would suspect that because the husband has not been actually diagnosed with ANYTHING (even though it’s suspected that he has problems), the contract is probably a valid one. Without a diagnosis, I doubt that she can just charge into the bank and demand that HIS loan be retracted.
November 5, 2009 at 1:38 am
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November 5, 2009 at 3:39 pm
if all the info was accurate in the letter it sounds like a dealership…banks don’t stamp “house” across a contract…and he was ineligible for the life insurance due to his age…again, the dealership may be funded through a bank but I don’t think the actual transaction took place inside a bank…and yes there is a difference….
November 5, 2009 at 6:45 pm
That’s one of the saddest stories I’ve ever read.The poor woman to have to struggle through that.
My thoughts are with you and I hope your situation gets resolved in a positive manner.
November 6, 2009 at 3:28 am
[...] Vaz-Oxlade takes on a sticky issue in Making a Complaint about loans made to folks who should not be given [...]